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xAyjAy
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xAyjAy
4,710 posts
Blacksmith

let us say there could be places like heaven and hell...

..what would happen with people who can not believe after they die? what happens with people who never had the chance to believe anything after they died? what happens with people who forgot that there is a god (altzheimers) or people who are mentally handicapped or people in a coma when they die?

my point is that believe can not be the only "thing" that decides wether they get into heaven or hell (if these places even exist).

just a thought i had today.

  • 154 Replies
OperationNilo
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OperationNilo
3,937 posts
Shepherd

If God sends millions of people to hell, God deserves to go to hell.


Actually, God doesn't send people to hell. People's actions do. Why is this? Because if everyone got a free pass to heaven, it would be a concentration camp. Humans would lose that which separates us from animals: the ability to decide. We would be like robots programmed to do something.
EmperorPalpatine
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EmperorPalpatine
9,439 posts
Jester

Actually, God doesn't send people to hell. People's actions do.

If by hell you mean a place of eternal torment, even if this torment is simply 'seperation from God', that's infinite punishment for finite crimes. It's also pretty clear in the bible that God's a judge. What is He judging if the actions automatically send you one way or the other?
OperationNilo
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OperationNilo
3,937 posts
Shepherd

infinite punishment for finite crimes.


Finite crimes? When you sin (assuming that a random Joe does) you offend God. I do not think that is a 'finite' crime.

What is He judging if the actions automatically send you one way or the other?


He judges the actions that send you one way or the other.
EmperorPalpatine
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EmperorPalpatine
9,439 posts
Jester

you offend God.

Why is God so petty as to decide eternal torment just because His feelings were hurt? Especially considering omniscience, knowing in advance exactly who would offend Him and where, when, why, and how they would offend Him, then allowing (more specifically "willing&quot scenario X to occur.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

Actually, God doesn't send people to hell. People's actions do.


God still was the one to set up the system so that would be the outcome.

Because if everyone got a free pass to heaven, it would be a concentration camp.


How would that make it a concentration camp?

Humans would lose that which separates us from animals: the ability to decide. We would be like robots programmed to do something.


First off we are animals. Secondly not having some sort of ethereal eternal punishment isn't going to leave us with the inability to make decisions. I don't see at all how you're coming up with this.

Finite crimes? When you sin (assuming that a random Joe does) you offend God. I do not think that is a 'finite' crime.


This God seems pretty thin skinned and petty if he get's offended for eternity because, for example someone picked up sticks on the wrong day. or the worst thing you can possibly do, deny him. With also makes him sound like an egomaniac on top of it all.

He judges the actions that send you one way or the other.


So he is making the final decision of whether you are deserving of hell?
HahiHa
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HahiHa
8,256 posts
Regent

God still was the one to set up the system so that would be the outcome.

Exactly. Some always argue assuming the conditions are somewhat fixed and the only thing that decides where we are going is our behaviour. But I can argue that by changing the conditions, god could give everyone a free pass into heaven without us behaving any differently, assuming we didn't know about it. By not doing so, he does send those poor sods to hell.

Now you could argue that we couldn't not know about the conditions, as they are apparently set in the bible and if they would be any different, god would be lying. I can answer that by saying there are so many divergent opinions on what does or does not grant you access to hell/heaven that what is written in the bible doesn't seem to be taken seriously by anyone anyway. Just their personal opinions.
Vendablebow
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Vendablebow
30 posts
Nomad

I believe in a Heave and a Hell. We could sit here and debate to the end of time what the other is, looks like, or is made for. The debate cannot be won, because no on really knows.

On the one hand, think of it like this. There are three major religions in the world. Christianity, Islam and Judaism. All three are very similar in context. The book of Judaism is basically the old testament for Christianity while the book of Islam is basically both but tweeked for their own culture.

In the end if I had to chose one religion that I think is "The" religion. I would pick Christianity. Mainly because Jesus Christ was a positive influence on the world. He was kind, and we know for a fact actually existed. The rest is left for debate, but one thing you cannot disavow is that Jesus Christ existed, was real, and was here.

pangtongshu
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pangtongshu
9,808 posts
Jester

In the end if I had to chose one religion that I think is "The" religion.


I'm assuming you mean "The" religion as in "the correct" religion? And going off of that...which denomination of Christianity? And goin off of that..why does picking the correct faith dictate where you end up?

It's sad that there are people out there that believe that even if someone is an extraordinarily good person..the fact that they don't believe in the "correct" religion (so deemed by themselves) is enough justification for eternal ****ation. And yes..I have met people that think like this..and even questioned that thinking.

I would pick Christianity. Mainly because Jesus Christ was a positive influence on the world. He was kind, and we know for a fact actually existed. The rest is left for debate, but one thing you cannot disavow is that Jesus Christ existed, was real, and was here.


So, if you had to pick the "correct" religion..you would base your choosing solely on Jesus? Not the teachings of that religion?

As for his existence..do you have any proof other than hearsay accounts?
thepunisher93
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thepunisher93
1,826 posts
Nomad

As for his existence..do you have any proof other than hearsay accounts?

Can you prove Leonidas existed? or arostotle, galileo, socrates, ceaser, any one of them existed?
For all we know the statues and paintings attributes as their's could be work of mad men.
Vendablebow
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Vendablebow
30 posts
Nomad

Can you prove Leonidas existed? or arostotle, galileo, socrates, ceaser, any one of them existed?
For all we know the statues and paintings attributes as their's could be work of mad men.


Thank you sir, and this is my point. When it comes to a religious head figure, all of a sudden there are now doubts on their existence? lol

As to Pang, I am not trying to start a debate on which is the correct religion, I am just saying, from a spiritual sense, the teachings of Jesus make much more sense than that of most of the other biblical figures from the bible or koran. As for the denomination question, I am not a part of a denomination. Jesus did not say, go worship your father at a Catholic Church, he did not say go worship him at a Lutheran or Baptist Church. He just said worship him.
Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

Thank you sir, and this is my point. When it comes to a religious head figure, all of a sudden there are now doubts on their existence? lol


The doubts aren't about some person claiming to be the son of God, or some person named Jesus who was from Nazarath. The doubts are that said person was the actual son of God, existed as told in the Bible, performed miracles and was crucified, rising from the grave three days later.

Mainly because Jesus Christ was a positive influence on the world.


That's highly contestable.

I believe in a Heave and a Hell.


Why?

I am just saying, from a spiritual sense, the teachings of Jesus make much more sense than that of most of the other biblical figures from the bible or koran.


To you.
Vendablebow
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Vendablebow
30 posts
Nomad

To you.


So teaching you to love your neighbor, care for the sick and the poor, the children is contestable and doesn't make sense? How is that so?

We are all born with a sense of morality, we know right from wrong. Tell me which of those things is wrong in your opinion.
pangtongshu
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pangtongshu
9,808 posts
Jester

Can you prove Leonidas existed? or arostotle, galileo, socrates, ceaser, any one of them existed?
For all we know the statues and paintings attributes as their's could be work of mad men.


With these people..their existence can be questioned, but also defended. There is work by them, but there is also outside evidence besides evidence provided by themselves

Example:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Justus_Sustermans_-_Portrait_of_Galileo_Galilei%2C_1636.jpg/220px-Justus_Sustermans_-_Portrait_of_Galileo_Galilei%2C_1636.jpg
Galileo Galilei Portrait done by Giusto Sustermans

With Jesus..we have words that others state he said. There is no works of his own, no dwellings, no work of carpentry, etc. The only evidence is what others said about him

Also..the statement was that Jesus for a fact actually existed and that you cannot disavow that Jesus Christ existed, was real, and was here....when in actuality, you can. The statement provided by thepunisher does nothing to prove Jesus and his existence, but brings up others we can question.

When it comes to a religious head figure, all of a sudden there are now doubts on their existence? lol


No, Buddha existed. Jesus, however, can be questioned and doubted very easily due to hearsay being his only evidence

As to Pang


*pang

As to pang, I am not trying to start a debate on which is the correct religion, I am just saying, from a spiritual sense, the teachings of Jesus make much more sense than that of most of the other biblical figures from the bible or koran


What about other faiths? There are plenty of other faiths than those that stemmed from the Bible and Qur'an

Jesus did not say, go worship your father at a Catholic Church, he did not say go worship him at a Lutheran or Baptist Church. He just said worship him.


Holy Trinity (God, Jesus, Holy spirit)
God
Jesus

Different denominations have one of these as their head figure. Which is the "correct" "Him" to worship?

For some denominations, Christ is merely the Son of God, for others..he is God. Then we have some that believe it is not something that is split a part as so..but that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all unison. Technically speaking, they are difference figures to worship..so which is the "correct" one?
pangtongshu
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pangtongshu
9,808 posts
Jester

So teaching you to love your neighbor, care for the sick and the poor, the children is contestable and doesn't make sense? How is that so?


What about teaching that when a woman is on her period..she is not allowed in the home?

Or when a woman is r@ped, she must marry her r@pist..and if she does not do so her father must stone her?

Or men are not allowed to shave?
Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

So teaching you to love your neighbor, care for the sick and the poor, the children is contestable and doesn't make sense? How is that so?


Try looking beyond. Jesus did far more than that in the Bible, not all of it good. Not only that, people have used religion and Christianity in particular as personal justifications for committing evil and persecuting others. Even today that continues across the world, against homosexuals and atheists and nonbelievers. They force their views on others in the name of "Jesus Christ."

Nothing is entirely good or evil.

We are all born with a sense of morality, we know right from wrong. Tell me which of those things is wrong in your opinion.


We are not born with a sense of morality. We learn morality from society and our parents, our friends, and introspection. Right and wrong are subjective.
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