I am a christian, i and i strongly belive in my lord jesus christ, and i also belive that if you belive in him and except him as your savior, u will go to heaven. and i also believe that he created the world, not the big bang, or that we came from stupid apes.
In religion it is all to easy to fall back on god as the excuse.
Agreed. Too many people of any religion (atheists included) make excuses based on what they believe. But that's where an objective standard of what is right is important.
Without god we must live up to our own morality and be held responsible by ourselves, which is much more difficult.
This is slippery ground. It begs the question, What is our own morality?
Sadly morality is based on the individual and society's own views of what is moral and immoral.
Then this isn't morality at all, and what we think of as right and wrong have no moral meaning whatsoever.
The only way we can call something right or wrong is if we have an objective standard, outside of ourselves, to measure up against. This is a position that God fills.
And if you assume that God is created by men, then yes, we are defining morality for ourselves, but it is still not true morality at all.
Your correct in saying that the verse itself was fairly clear (although room for debate was still there) and, in fact, a lot of the New Testament is fairly straightforward. The problem is when you get to comparing the Old and New testaments where God seems to be two completely different beings. Contradictions and ambiguity abound.
I won't say that the Bible is never unclear on anything, that's certainly not true. But I won't admit that it's an ambiguous and contradictory mess. If there are specific contradictions that I can help make sense of for you, I'd be glad to help.
Such as?
Some virtues, like courage and self-sacrifice, that can only exist in the face of evil.
And yet you must question or else you leave yourself as an ignorant sheep. Not all Christians are as some have questioned and made it to the other side but the questioning is of utmost importance when it comes to religion.
You make a good point. Questioning is always a good thing. But please don't assume that because you don't like the way things are, there isn't a reason that that's the way it is.
But why wouldn't he? Having Free will and no death sounds like a sweet deal to me.
What is freewill in a world without consequences?
Then he himself is not good, this causes me to assume that the moral code must be separate from God meaning it's existence doesn't depend on his no?
Not necessarily. You can think of it like a justice system. The only person capable of condemning criminals for their crimes is the judge, who has the right qualifications and sense of justice to do the job right.
So while God may do things that we think are unjust, only He has the qualifications to make that judgment, ultimately.
Morality and Love?
He's much more than a list of rules. He's a person, of sorts, too.
And it's time for bed. It's been a great conversation, and I hope I have a chance to get back to any replies you might have sometime tomorrow. Thanks a lot!
Because, assuming that God exists, what is moral is moral because God commands it.
Belief in God isn't necessary for morality to exist, in the same way that belief in authors isn't necessary to read books.
Write but following that analogy we could assume that the moral code has an author which makes it possible to assume God exists. With that being said I don't think that the easiest conclusion to draw is always the right one.
Along the lines of your first point (all understand morality) wouldn't it make sense that if God was the standard for morality we would all have an inclination to believe in him, that is to say if God is morality (figuratively) wouldn't knowledge of morality lead to knowledge of God?
Belief in God isn't necessary for morality to exist, in the same way that belief in authors isn't necessary to read books.
Bad comparison, authors as well as books are physical things that we can see and touch. God and morals are both things based on personal beliefs.
I don't believe in god and have my own personal set of morals. I do agree with quite a few things in the bible and other holy books, but there are ares where I disagree.
Because, assuming that God exists, what is moral is moral because God commands it.
I've been doing some reading on the differences you've been talking about, and this article explains the problem and its solution.
From your perspective, certain actions are considered good because God commands it to be so. Morality is subjective to him, and comes from his power to enforce it.
Others will say that God commands something to be good because of a standard even higher than himself. But that would rob God of his sovereignty.
What I would suggest is a third option. That morality is a part of His character. That His character is inherently good, He can't be evil.
Then everything He commands is good, not because He wills it to be so, but because it's a part of who He is, and He can't command differently.
Understand?
that is to say if God is morality (figuratively) wouldn't knowledge of morality lead to knowledge of God?
I'm getting you there, don't worry. haha
But I believe that morality does lead to God. You seem to be saying that if morality comes from God, and we can sense morality, then we would have a tendency to believe in God. Can you say that we don't?
