What about the third option I said? That there is no difference between what is moral and what is God's nature. That leaves no room for subjectivity.
We are still left with all the examples of where morality is subjective. In fact the argument on slavery in the Bible and how it was acceptable back then and reprehensible now is a clear example of such subjectivity.
I'm saying that God should be able to, in his infinite wisdom, create a way for freewill to exist without causing all that is wrong with the world.
For instance we could have been hardwired not to sin rather then to do so as suggested that we are.
Something along the lines of creating a child even though you know one day it's have sex in your bed. Well maybe not, but all the same would you rather be alive in this world of death or non-existent?
Besides what wolf said given the latter I don't think I would be caring.
That he should be able to does not mean that he should choose to. I don't think it's a necessarily safe assumption to assume that things would simply be better that way.
You mean it wouldn't be better if say a baby wasn't born with a severe congenital deformity and just lived a short painful life?
And further, God has a very different perspective on the universe, and may have reasons we can't even imagine for allowing the universe to function as it does. So long as the possibility exists that he has a reason for what he does, I can't assume that he's wrong for doing so.
So your saying if exists God could have had a good reason to F'up creation? If we can't go making assumptions then we can't say he was right or even exists at all.
Murdering people just for the sake of jealousy is a sin for us, yes. But even before guessing as to what His reasons could be for doing so, it's fair to ask why you expect God to be held by the same moral commandments he passed on to us? He could have very good reasons why we are forbidden to do something ourselves, on our own, but He is within his rights to command it.
Many Christian claim these morals as absolutes. As such they would apply to everyone, including God. Saying otherwise is just special pleading and would indicate God either does not or can not live up to even lowly human standards.
From a Christian Apologetics organization called Stand To Reason.
Apologetic? About as bad as creation sites.
I suppose you could say that, if you could also say that the Bible is just a history book. But morality isn't the only thing that comes from God, so why do you think that's all he is?
I wouldn't even call it a history book.
And God didn't choose what people would do. He made the choice to create humanity, and it is up to us to make our own choices. Just like a parent raising a child, like Samy brought up.
But as stated previously he is doing so knowing full well what will happen.
This is slippery ground. It begs the question, What is our own morality?
It can be at times, our own morality is a subjective point.
Subjective to the individual, but at the same time believe that there is an absolute moral code. Perhaps God is a way for humans to define this code?
I have to say that's an interesting view on the matter.
The only way we can call something right or wrong is if we have an objective standard, outside of ourselves, to measure up against. This is a position that God fills.
Again slavery right or wrong? At one point it was considered acceptable, today it is not. There was no objectivity here to determine this.
How about stealing? This must surely be objectively wrong, but hey given the right circumstances say stealing so you don't starve then it's suddenly not so bad, at least to the person starving. The person or place that is being stolen from might not see it that way. So stealing so you don't starve is it morally okay or not okay?
As you can see depending on the situation and persons perspective on that situation what's moral can change, thus subjective.
I won't say that the Bible is never unclear on anything, that's certainly not true. But I won't admit that it's an ambiguous and contradictory mess. If there are specific contradictions that I can help make sense of for you, I'd be glad to help.
What's it say about kill/murder?
You make a good point. Questioning is always a good thing. But please don't assume that because you don't like the way things are, there isn't a reason that that's the way it is.
Why do you make the assumption God is real when no empirical evidence is presented?
What is freewill in a world without consequences?
There are plenty who do bad things and have good things happen to them while there are plenty who do good things and have bad things happen to them. it almost seems as if the consequences are arbitrary.
How so? If God is the standard for morality, and the Bible is His word to us, then hasn't he given us an understanding of true morality?
Slaves okay, having sex with slaves okay, nothing in there about child molesting. Yeah I'm going to do the moral thing and get me a preteen slave girl to have sex with... Wait, that doesn't make me feel good. Actually it kind of makes me feel a bit sick to my stomach to do. But there have been plenty of God faring people who have been completely fine doing just that. Guess my godless heathen ways must be getting in the way of my ability to live up to Gods morals.
In what way is morality separate from God?
You've said yourself you claim that an objective moral code governing us doesn't have to apply to God. This would mean he is separate from it.
What I would suggest is a third option. That morality is a part of His character. That His character is inherently good, He can't be evil.
If we are to say he is and has done what the Bible claims things like genocide sure don't sound like the act of good to me, even if those being killed were not good themselves. This being who created it all would only have himself to blame.
Then everything He commands is good, not because He wills it to be so, but because it's a part of who He is, and He can't command differently.
So commanding Mose to go wipe out a town was good?
Requiring human sacrifice just to say "your forgiven" is good?
But I believe that morality does lead to God. You seem to be saying that if morality comes from God, and we can sense morality, then we would have a tendency to believe in God. Can you say that we don't?
There are those with moral views without having a tendency to believe in God. Back when I was theistic my moral view points had nothing to do with my tendency to believe in a deity.
I love it, all the Christians in this thread bending and altering their story along the way, digging bits out of the Bible, and using them to argue a completely invalid point, then directing the subject towards prayers, morality etc, all things which have no relation to the validity of God's existence, therefore the whole basis of the Christian religion.
That's pretty much Christian apologetics in a nut shell.
we are absolutely random, a creation of the universe expanding and not with any purpose in mind by some magical being up in the skies, no heaven, no hell, no purgatory, no miracles, everything is absolutely random.
There are part of evolution that are not random at all, so i wouldn't say we are totally random.
