Forums → WEPR → [nec]Christianity vs Atheism
| 3094 | 509576 |
I am a christian, i and i strongly belive in my lord jesus christ, and i also belive that if you belive in him and except him as your savior, u will go to heaven. and i also believe that he created the world, not the big bang, or that we came from stupid apes.
- 3,094 Replies
All bibles translate to make the meaning what they want to say.They are all full of crap.
30 cubits (60 feet) is nowhere even close to holding all the world's species.
Ever think of eggs and babies?
not to mention, holding all the food and water required to keep everyone alive
Eggs and babies don't eat much.
Plus, Noah would have had to build and aquarium for the fish. The fresh water rain/salt water rain would have changed the salinity of the water and the fish would perish. You can try this at home kids; take a slat shaker, and put slat in goldy's fish tank. Now watch him go belly up!
Microevolution FTW!
Not to mention, Mount Everest is roughly30,000 feet above sea level. Even if you melted all the ice and exacted all the ground water in the world, there would not be enough water to raise the oceans 30,020 feet
1 word (and an article): The firmament. There was water in the sky. A lot of it.
Also at that elevation, Noah better be handing out oxygen masks.Due to antediluvian conditions, the atmosphere was probably very different from what it is today.
Also after the flood, where the hell did all that water go? The sun would have to teleport several millions of miles to get the Earth's average temp from 72 degrees to 212 degrees to boil the water,and then teleport back to the regular position.
The antediluvian earth was a totally different beast than it was today. A lot of the water is what we call oceans today. Some of it evaporated, some receded into the oceans, a lot emptied into caves and underground caverns, some may have formed the ice caps and glaciers. Besides, they were in the ark for a looong time, plenty for the waters to recede.
Side note: 2 of each animal would destroy the gene pool. Inbreeding results in genetic impurities. Look at the Russian Czars. Royal Family inbreeding gave them Hemophilia. Also, how did Kangaroos, Polar Bears, and Penguins get to the Middle East and Survive the desert heat?
The earth was once one whole landmass, making a journey from San Francisco to Beijing would be a walk in the park. (Loose example, don't quote me on that). Also once again, microevolution ftw!
All bibles translate to make the meaning what they want to say.They are all full of crap.
Oh goody, now we have a troll who wants to insult the Bible, while providing to evidence for his claims. Let me take a whack at it: Guess what? All of your precious evolutionary data has been manipulated by atheist crusaders who will totally discard the scientific method just to make their hypothesis sound legit.
I think I'd like to throw a few links into the 'Noahs Ark' mix.
The first is about caring for the animals in the Ark
The next is about survival of aquatic species during the 'global flood'
The third is about how animals would have survived AFTER the flood
And finally, my personal favourite, about the Global Flood itself
All 6 of them. But seriously, this is a quote from David Raup, Curator of the Chicago Field Museum of Natural History and expert on fossil history:
Well, we are now about 120 years after Darwin, and knowledge of the fossil record has been greatly expanded...ironically, we have even fewer examples of evolutionary transition than we had in Darwin's time. By this I mean that some of the classic cases of Darwinian change in the fossil record, such as the evolution of the horse in North America, have had to be discarded or modified as the result of more detailed information.
David Raup, Field Museum of Natural History Bulletin, 1979.
Look at Avorne's links and feel the burn
But do you guys really believe the Ark story?
I mean... logically?
Unfortunately this computer won't open the links, but if you post on here and tell me specifically what issues you have, I'd be willing to debate them. I hardly think spamming links constitutes as debating.
Also, yes I do logically believe in the Biblical flood because it is entirely plausible.
Ever think of eggs and babies?
That's still a lot of volume. I doubt Noah had cryogenic test tubes to preserve the microscopic eggs.
Eggs and babies don't eat much
You obviously have never been around children.
Microevolution FTW!
word (and an article): The firmament. There was water in the sky. A lot of it.
Short summery, take the water out of the air, and bad s*** happens. plus its impossible to get the first heat up the atmosphere to melt the ice particles with out killing the biosphere.
The antediluvian earth was a totally different beast than it was today. A lot of the water is what we call oceans today. Some of it evaporated, some receded into the oceans, a lot emptied into caves and underground caverns, some may have formed the ice caps and glaciers. Besides, they were in the ark for a looong time, plenty for the waters to recede.
Jesus faceplam for that amount of stupidity
The earth was once one whole landmass, making a journey from San Francisco to Beijing would be a walk in the park. (Loose example, don't quote me on that). Also once again, microevolution ftw!
Pangaea existed like 700 million years ago. Time line is a bit off.
Genesis 7
11In the six hundredth year of Noah�s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the(G) fountains of the great deep burst forth, and(H) the windows of the heavens were opened.
So volcanoes were able to eject some billion tons of water? And Noah, the 600 year old man survived the shock wave?
Genesis 8
2 The fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained, 3and the waters receded from the earth continually. At the end of 150 days the waters had abated,...
Water doesn't just disappear bro. that would be a s*** load of water vapor and thus, a extreme amount of rainclouds.
about the food thing...
(Genesis 621 "You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them.'
it says nothing about the volume of the food. No one can live 150 days with a single loaf of bread.
I've been looking for the thing about the mountains, but I can't seem to find anything... But anyone should know that floodwaters can do amazing things. They can make valleys, canyons... Mountains. There is a theory involving a supercontinent, Pangaea, that the flood caused Pangaea to separate into our seven continents. I don't know much about that, though.
water must have been moving at lightspeed to crave up valleys and mountains in 150 days.
That's still a lot of volume. I doubt Noah had cryogenic test tubes to preserve the microscopic eggs.
But it's a feasible volume.
You obviously have never been around children.
They weren't humans, for crying out loud.
As for the facepalm, that's totally mature and relevant. How about this: maybe you can break away from the traditions of your fellow atheists and have an intelligent debate rather than try to make fun of us? Oh wait, maybe because you have no intelligent reply.
Short summery, take the water out of the air, and bad s*** happens. plus its impossible to get the first heat up the atmosphere to melt the ice particles with out killing the biosphere.
...what are you talking about? Let me simplify it for you:
Water in the sky.
God makes water fall from sky.
Water floods earth.
Folk die.
Pangaea existed like 700 million years ago. Time line is a bit off.
Correction: Pangaea existed 6,000 years ago.
Well I'm off for an hour or so...maybe the rest of the night depending on whether or not I can get back on after dinner.
Unfortunately this computer won't open the links
Ah I see.
Well for your reading pleasure I will post the entire thing
*Ahem*
Link 1, Caring for the animals in Noah's Ark.
[i]The story of the global flood in the Bible has Noah and his immediate family (8 people in total) caring for two of every kind of animal in the entire world. In his book Noah's Ark:A Feasibility Study, creationist author John Woodmorappe asserts that only 8,000 kinds of animals would have been taken on the ark. The total would probably have been a lot more, but we shall concede this point for the purpose of expediency. Even if only 16,000 animals were to be brought on that ark, eight people could not possibly have cared for them all.
Watering
Each animal would have to be provided with sufficient fresh water each day. If we say that watering an animal took only 20 seconds then that gives us 88 human-hours of work watering animals per day.
More problematic would be the source of the water itself.
If the flood waters were used, some method of purification would be needed to remove the silt, salt, and other high concentrations of toxins. Distillation would require a tremendous quantity of fuel and labor. Filtering it through sand would be painfully slow and would require tons upon tons of sand weighing a minimum of 90 pounds per cubic foot The sand would then have to be changed periodically due to mineral buildup. Solar distillation would require sunlight, which would be lacking for the first forty days of rains, and vast surface areas for water to evaporate and condense. Chemical purification and boiling, ignoring the impossible logistics, would do nothing to diminish the toxic levels of minerals. No matter the purification method, a method to move thousands of gallons per day, from the waterline to upper levels, would be needed.
Storing water from before the flood would have been even more absurd. Assume that at least 100 of the animals had at a minimum the water requirements of a goat. A goat requires more than two gallons of water per day to survive. Water weighs about eight pounds per gallon. For these 100 animals alone, 200 gallons of water would be needed each day, weighing in excess of 1600 pounds. To last 376 days, 75,200 gallons, weighing almost eighty tons would have to be brought aboard and stored, without compromising the buoyancy and stability of the Ark -- for just these 100 animals.
It is conceivable that a system of ducts could have captured rainwater and watered the animals for the first forty days of heavy rains. However, the problem remains that 336 days of water would need to be stored, purified, and/or captured. Only by heavy, regular rains would this be conceivable, which of course contradicts the statement that the rains stopped on the fortieth day.
Feeding
Feeding all the animals would be literally impossible. If we accept a generous estimate of each person being able to feed one animal every 30 seconds, this means that 133 human hours of labor would be needed to feed every animal each day (Keep in mind, eight people equals a maximum of 192 people-hours per day). Perhaps some of the animals could be used to replace the human toil, if the design of the ark included provisions for this - but there is no note of such engineering in the Guide to Truth Bible.
Also, making the lions and tigers and bears to eat pellets of grain for 40 days and 40 nights, all while surrounded by nice warm living sides of T-bone steaks and New York Cuts and filets mignon would have been a difficult task. The carnivores would probably have needed fresh meat on a daily basis, leading to the extinction of many unfortunate species.
Dung
Living in piles of their own dung is very unhealthy for most animals, and after long their health would suffer. The animals on Noah's ark would have to have their cages cleaned periodically. In most places that care for animals, this is done once a day. Eight people cleaning 16,000 cages a day is absurd. A healthy human, working hard, can clean roughly 100 or so "average" cages or stables in a really tough workday. Remember the above, we also had to allocate time to providing water.
Lets take a closer look at what it takes to clean an animals cage.
Setting the estimate low we could say the process of removing the dung took 60 seconds for a large cage, 10 seconds for a small cage. We could say the average time spent per cage would be 30 seconds.
The dung would have to be thrown overboard eventually so, again setting the estimate low, we could say the cleaner would have to empty his waste container only every 20 cages.
The time taken to empty the waste overboard would vary on the position of the cage being cleaned. The ones on the deck below the water would take longer to empty their waste than the ones on the upper decks, while the ones working in the center of the ark would take longer to empty their waste than the ones on the edge. Setting the estimate low again we are looking at 3 minutes to empty waste.
Calculating this out we are looking at 17 human hours of labor removing dung.
Of course, if Noah had built various magical machines (mostly powered inclined planes and those "screw" things), the disposal of the poop would have been a bit easier.
Urine
Animals also pee. Animals on the top deck would not need to have their urine dealt with because the decks could theoretically be slanted so the urine would flow out into the ocean. (God must have supplied really detailed blueprints for Noah to get all this right.) The urine on the bottom decks, however, would have to be manually removed or else it would build up and sink the ship. Say there were only 10,000 animals on the bottom two decks. Say, setting the estimate low, each animal only peed on average one fourth of a cup per day. That gives us 2500 cups (165 gallons) of urine that needed to be bilge pumped per day.
Now, reasonably, the most a person can carry is about eight gallons per trip. That results in roughly twenty trips per day of "iss duty".
Swamp theory
An alternative is to design the ark so that it will carry an entire ecosystem similar to a swamp, so the bacteria and plants will utilize the urine and fecal matter, and have water vapor for collection (via metal plates or glass). However, the size of such a swamp will far exceed the assumed dimensions of the ark, given the number of animals on board. Water makes up a large proportion of the mass of a wetland such as this, and of course water is tremendously heavy. Assuming a pound of waste material per animal per day (the larger animals which produce many pounds of fecal material per day balancing out the smaller creatures), from 8000 animals in a 376-day period equals approx 1500 tons of waste material during the Great Flood. To avoid becoming a fetid, dead swamp, and to allow the natural waste digestion process to occur, the waste products would have to be extremely diluted, with the swamp having perhaps at least fifteen times the mass of all waste products produced by the animals. Thus the swamp could perhaps have to weigh over 20,000 tons, which would require a Handysize cargo ship to carry this waste processing swamp alone. The Ark would have had to be a vast ship to carry such a mass along with all the animals and feed. Also, a sophisticated plumbing system would have to be employed, because such a swamp would be on the top deck of the ark (it requires sunlight), while urine and fecal matter would need to be transported from the lower decks. Since the time spent for animal potty training would take too long (they have to be trained in different groups so the animals don't eat each other in order for them to produce dung and urine for training), the fecal matter and urine ends up still having to be manually collected.
Conclusion
Adding up all the hours we get that the 8 inhabitants of Noah's ark would have had to perform, as a conservative estimate, 239 hours of labor each day. That means 29 hours of labor a day per person, Noah and his family must have been extraordinary people! Especially extraordinary since sleep has not been accounted for.
Alternatively, all this was possible back then because Goddidit.
You are a damn idiot Kody - brainwashed into Young Earth Creationism and oblivious to the truth.
A. Radiometric dating easily shows that the world is older than the 6,500 you're talking about.
B. The fossil record and layers within rock also support a world much older than 6,500.
C. In fact, anything that's actual science and not a Christian Pseudoscience basically supports the world being older than 4,500 years.
Link 2, Survival of aquatic species during the global flood
Noah did not take any fish, or other marine life, on the ark, so every species of fish, mollusc or crustacean observable today had to survive out in the open ocean for the 367 day duration of the flood. This would have presented numerous insurmountable problems. The mixing of salt and fresh water would have killed many fish, tremendous oceanic turbulence would have killed others, and still others thrown out of their normal habitat would die of starvation.
Demonstrating the obvious
It should be clear that the story of Noahâs Ark and the flood is a myth. Unfortunately scientists need to make elaborate studies with computer models to demonstrate the obvious to Fundamentalist Christians.
Salinity change
Changes in salinity would have killed many of the fish. Most marine life cannot survive in water of reduced salinity, and likewise most freshwater creatures cannot tolerate increased salinity. This is a simple fact due to the nature of their evolved osmotic membranes, which tend to allow water itself to move in only one direction - into the animal in salt water, and out of it in fresh water.
Turbulence
Models of the global flood result in ocean currents fluctuating between 40 and 80 meters per second, a speed of 4000% (40 times) as fast as the fastest ocean currents today, which peak at 2 meters per second. This would have caused massive turbulence that many species would be unable to survive.
Aquatic species such as the various stingrays, which spend most of their time in close proximity to the ocean floor, would be repeatedly bashed against the bottom of the ocean, a collision they would be unable to survive even once. All coral reef fish, and the reefs themselves, would meet a similar fate.
Sediment accumulation
The global flooding and the extreme turbulence caused in the Noah's Ark myth would have stripped the earth of topsoil. This would have caused extreme problems for aquatic species that require clear water, and they would choke on particulate concentrations nearing 30%.
Habitat destruction
Coral reefs, which consist of the accumulated calcerous exoskeletons of tiny invertebrate polyps, provide a habitat for many creatures. They are also very sensitive to changes in salinity, temperature and depth (which includes higher pressures and lower levels of sunlight); the corals would not have survived such a massive inundation.
Pressure fluctuation
The flood would have caused a fluctuation in the water pressure that would kill many animal species either from decompression or excess pressure.
Thread is locked!