Forums → WEPR → The Religion Debate Thread

lol nichodemus.
that does show a very good point.
God, if he even is there, is not there to serve us. if he is God, and God is really there, than God is above all of us. he does not serve us, if anything, we serve him.
.
now on the topic of prayer, I've been taught that God has a plan for everything that he has always known, even before the universe was created. and the Bible says, God's plans will never be thwarted. so prayer is a very confusing thing.... if God's plan will never be thwarted + God knows everything, so he knows what your problems are, why should you pray? its not going to "change" God, and make him think, "oh thanks poppy, you are right, my plan sucks. lets do it your way." lol
God's gonna do what God's gonna do. so prayer is a bit confusing. but if you think about it, prayer is more than just asking God for what you want. It is also used to praise Him, and talk to him. if you think of prayer like that, it makes much more sense.
but i think the bible itself says to bring your needs before God in prayer...
so... now we are back to being confused. lol

Personally...I don't think there's a need to praise a god even if such a being existed. I don't praise my parents/tutors/government on a daily basis, and arguably all of them (Or parents at least), do a ton more for me than any god. I don't really see how an immortal being who made all of reality would bother with needing praise from people daily. All seems rather insignificant and pales in comparison to all that's out there in the cosmos.

This more or less correlates to my opinion that as Man explores his world (From the tiny Roman Empire that the early Christians knew), and he realises how much there is out there, how insignificant he and his religious beliefs can be.

the only problem i have with God not being there is creation.
how did we all get here?
evolution seems way too far fetched to be anywhere near real...
so that means I'm left with religious ideas

now on the topic of prayer, I've been taught that God has a plan for everything that he has always known, even before the universe was created. and the Bible says, God's plans will never be thwarted. so prayer is a very confusing thing.... if God's plan will never be thwarted + God knows everything, so he knows what your problems are, why should you pray? its not going to "change" God, and make him think, "oh thanks poppy, you are right, my plan sucks. lets do it your way." lol

It is also used to praise Him, and talk to him. if you think of prayer like that, it makes much more sense.

the only problem i have with God not being there is creation.
how did we all get here?
evolution seems way too far fetched to be anywhere near real...
so that means I'm left with religious ideas

Evolution is basically a "religion" in itself. so go ahead. lol

Evolution is basically a "religion" in itself. so go ahead. lol

Personally, I think that God set everything into motion and set up the laws of nature, science, ect. but doesn't directly do things often, but rather subtly influenced them. Of course, The Bible (especially the old testament) might be a tad bit inaccurate as people back then didn't have that much information to work with- There's plenty of evidence today saying that not everything in the Bible is correct. However, he probably did have a hand in things.

We could introduce the problem of God's omniscience vs our free will at this point; if we have free will, how can he know everything that will be?

He knows every action we will take from the start because he knows us all. He gives us free will to let us do what we enjoy but knows from the beginning what we will do. The only problem is that if we somehow knew our fate if we did something and did something else, which will probably not happen before God creates His new kingdom, removes Earth, and takes us all to heaven to the kingdom (except those in Hell, they are considered spiritually dead anyways).

Personally...I don't think there's a need to praise a god even if such a being existed. I don't praise my parents/tutors/government on a daily basis, and arguably all of them (Or parents at least), do a ton more for me than any god. I don't really see how an immortal being who made all of reality would bother with needing praise from people daily. All seems rather insignificant and pales in comparison to all that's out there in the cosmos

...Which God created for us. Your parents/tutors/government didn't create the entire universe, did they?

Evolution actually makes a lot of sense when you take the time to look at it; there is more than enough evidence for it, and it is apparently even officially declared compatible with their beliefs by most churches. Which makes sense; if there was a god, all evolutionary biologists would be doing is researching his creation

Personally, I believe in both God and evolution. There's too much evidence to deny that some sort of evolution occurred throughout the history of life, but if you don't believe in God, how else would the Big Bang have happened? In this universe, you can't create something out of nothing... Unless you're God.

@FishPreferred

No, it couldn't. Coincidence would require some temporo-spatial overlap between the two events. What you should be asking yourself is whether this is a case of confirmation bias

Temporo-spatiol overlap! Howah! No idea what that is but I'll take your word for it as you seem to know what your talking about. As far as it being confirmation bias, it very well could be and I have no scientific evidence to say that it is not. However, I highly doubt it. Like I stated, I feel that I have a relationship with God. Can't really describe how that feels like but it's a great feeling nonetheless. If it actually is just a case of confirmation bias, then so be it.. I'm living a great and happy life because of it.

Why should the number of coincident events pertaining to anything be finite?

Say that there was a family of farmers back in the.. Say.. 1800's. They were experiencing a very long and devastating drought. All of the families crops were destroyed and the family was barely living off of rationed water. To make matters worse, one of the farmers children became incredibly ill just before the drought occurred. They had a doctor come by and he said that there was nothing he could do for him at the moment. Now, the father of this family was not a very religious man. He believed in God, but he was extremely mad at Him for all of the bad things that happen in life. Now, more than ever, he was raging mad because the drought has ruined all of his crops, his son is dying, and if it doesn't rain soon, the whole family might die from dehydration (all the lakes/rivers/wells have dried up). One day, when his family completely ran out of water and he didn't know what to do. Crying, he sat down and prayed to God about everything. As he is praying, he all of a sudden quickly jumps up, startled from an extremely loud noise-thunder. It begins to downpour, and the family rejoices all day. A day later, the doctor comes back incredibly excited. The father asks why he is so excited.. Especially because his child is doing terrible and he didn't think that he was going to make it. The doctor whips out a cure for the illness and treats the child. The father asks why he didn't treat him with the cure earlier. The doctor stated that the cure came from an extremely rare plant, one that only ever grows during a drought.

Now, I don't completely understand what you are asking.. But I was just stating that it would be hard for me to believe that a series of "coincidences" such as the ones that happened in that story I just made up (pretty great story eh? Eh? No?) had nothing to do with the father praying. Especially when there is a lot more that just a few coincidences and those things happen in my own life and I experience them first hand (maybe not quite as dramatic as in my story).

No, because it really isn't. Any mission which uses indoctrination to propagate willful ignorance and superstition can only be a detriment to society as a whole.

So.. You are saying that no matter what the mission is, if the mission has to do with religion than it is a terrible mission and that people trying to complete the mission will be a detriment to society? I have to disagree with this. Example: 'Christians want to stop Hitler because God says that what Hitler is doing, is wrong'. Therefore, one of their missions is to help stop Hitler. Just because the reason for a mission is different from other peoples reason for a mission, does not mean that the mission itself will be a detriment to society.

Consider what it would be like if everyone followed the principles of Epicurean hedonism, rather than a set of vague, overgeneralized, decrees demanding blind obedience.

Well, based off of the very quick research I just did on Epicurean hedonism, I think that the world would be a much better place. Which is all I was really trying to get through with the ten commandments. The world wouldn't necessarily be perfect, but it would be much better than it is right now.

@popington

i never experienced God in my life, so when i hear all these religious people saying they just "feel God in their life all the time" it does not relate to me at all.

Christians don't necessarily "feel God in their life all of the time". I know how you feel like on that aspect man. I wasn't always a Christian and when I did become one, it wasn't an all of a sudden "Woah! I feel like Superman! I feel like God just entered into my body!" feeling like some people make it sound like. You will feel different in a good way, but not like that. When you become a Christian its not like a million miracles happen in your life every week. When you become a Christian, that is just the first step. You can't just stop there though. You don't step onto the first step of a staircase and feel like you made it to the top. There are a series of steps to really feel God in your life.. I'm not about to cram down your throat what you should and should not do and how you should go about "taking the next step", but if you are interested in making a relationship with God.. Just let me know.

As far as homosexuality, yes that is a sin. Does that mean that you shouldn't become a Christian? Not at all. But understand that being a Christian involves fighting against sin. I know multiple different people who were homosexual, became Christians, and then a few years later, they are not homosexual anymore. A few of them have very nice wives now too. Even if you don't have any intention of becoming heterosexual, don't let that scare you out of anything. Yes, many so called "Christians" may mess with you, but if they are messing with you, then they are no better themselves.. "Hypocrite! First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend's eye". A real Christian won't look down upon you if you tell them that your homosexual. Everyone is a sinner and as the Bible stats; no sin is greater than any other in Gods eyes.

@HahiHa

The problem I see with God answering people's prayers is that it makes no sense to me. If it was the case, it would seem he is very, very picky about which prayers he grants. For example, why would he help you with (as I assume) your relatively mundane day-to-day problems (no offense meant), but ignore all the pleas to cure a beloved one's illness?

I understand that. And honestly I couldn't really tell you how He picks which prayers he will answer and which prayers He won't. Or how quickly He answers those prayers. The way that I see it, is that God is all knowing and that everything happens for a reason. So, if you can imagine someone who knows absolutely everything and is extremely loving (as the Bible describes) and is in control of everything.. Then when something terrible does happen (or when something great doesn't happen) , then it has to be for a very good reason. Some reasons, we may not find out until later (like the drought in my above (undeniably amazing) story, if you read it), and some reasons that we may never find out.

It is this feeling of duty some have to "deliver the good news" to the seemingly lost people. Yes, I am talking about missionaries and proselytizing (as opposed to a genuine discussion, which I tend to enjoy). I find it very arrogant and condescending, to be honest.

One of the missions Christians have is to "deliver the good news" to people who haven't heard it yet. But, yes I completely understand when someone is too pushy when it comes to their beliefs. Many Christians (other religious people do also, maybe not as commonly though) wake up in the morning and seem to only have one thing on their mind; "Convert as many people as possible into Christians within the next 24 hours". What happens is then obvious, they become extremely pushy and try to shove verses and sayings that you really don't want to hear into your eardrums making them bleed and then you get ticked off at them because they won't leave you alone. My father had two Jehovah witnesses essentially barge into his house when he was in high school. His mother (my grandmother) was laying on the couch (she was dying) and the two Jehovah witnesses would not shut up about how she needed to convert before she dies.. My father almost literally had to push them out the door.. As you can imagine, my father now has an extremely short temper when it comes to Jehovah witnesses. The way that I see it, is if someone is confused about Christianity, has questions about it, wants to become a Christian, or just wants to discuss it, then I will definitely discuss it. But if they don't, by no means am I going to keep yapping on about how great Jesus is or start harping on them to "convert". Thats how I feel all Christians (everyone for that matter) should be. Unfortunately, not everyone is.

@BalkanRenegades

Lol, it sometimes knows to be true.

?

Almost every day I find articles in online news about people who "visited God" and "experienced death". I am very suspicious about those, but there are even more stories with proof.

Yes, there are quite a few stories of how people have "died" and then defibrillated back to life and then they have a wild story of going to heaven and seeing the deceased and stuff like that. There actually is a movie on it too if I'm not mistaken.. Yes, I am also very suspicious about those. Could it of actually happened? Yes, I personally believe so. However, there is a lot of science behind what it could actually be. Basically a dream that seems real that may happen when the brain is incredibly low on oxygen.. Thats what I understand from it anyway. And of course they could just be making it up.. But then again, maybe it does actually happen occasionally, theres not really any way of knowing for sure at the moment (that I know of).

Howah.. This got long..

A baby that is born into a non-muslim family doesn't leave islam because he denies the truth. He "leaves" islam because he grows up as a non-muslim.

This sounds like it's contradicting itself to me.

Lol, it sometimes knows to be true.

If you ask me, there is no coincidence...

I am very suspicious about those, but there are even more stories with proof. Try searching web a little bit and you will find bunch of them.

evolution seems way too far fetched to be anywhere near real...

Evolution is basically a "religion" in itself. so go ahead. lol

The only problem is that if we somehow knew our fate if we did something and did something else, which will probably not happen before God creates His new kingdom, removes Earth, and takes us all to heaven to the kingdom (except those in Hell, they are considered spiritually dead anyways).

...Which God created for us.

There's too much evidence to deny that some sort of evolution occurred throughout the history of life, but if you don't believe in God, how else would the Big Bang have happened?

In this universe, you can't create something out of nothing... Unless you're God.

Now, I don't completely understand what you are asking.. But I was just stating that it would be hard for me to believe that a series of "coincidences" such as the ones that happened in that story I just made up (pretty great story eh? Eh? No?) had nothing to do with the father praying.

So.. You are saying that no matter what the mission is, if the mission has to do with religion than it is a terrible mission and that people trying to complete the mission will be a detriment to society? I have to disagree with this.

Example: 'Christians want to stop Hitler because God says that what Hitler is doing, is wrong'. Therefore, one of their missions is to help stop Hitler.

So, if you can imagine someone who knows absolutely everything and is extremely loving (as the Bible describes) and is in control of everything.. Then when something terrible does happen (or when something great doesn't happen) , then it has to be for a very good reason.

As far as homosexuality, yes that is a sin. Does that mean that you shouldn't become a Christian? Not at all. But understand that being a Christian involves fighting against sin. I know multiple different people who were homosexual, became Christians, and then a few years later, they are not homosexual anymore. A few of them have very nice wives now too. Even if you don't have any intention of becoming heterosexual, don't let that scare you out of anything. Yes, many so called "Christians" may mess with you, but if they are messing with you, then they are no better themselves.. "Hypocrite! First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend's eye". A real Christian won't look down upon you if you tell them that your homosexual. Everyone is a sinner and as the Bible stats; no sin is greater than any other in Gods eyes.

One of the problems I have with this is...well, the default starting point of every human is that you're flawed. This isn't just about Christianity, but for most religions as well. The idea of sin, or being human, or flawed is alive in lots of religions, and that irks me. I don't see why people should view themselves as such, especially children. And well, a real Christian/Muslim/Hindu/etc might not look down upon someone if they're homosexual, they might pity them, or want to help them, but the way they help them to me is just wrong, if that help is forcing the other to overcome the way they were born.

Some people might be bisexual, some who do think they are homosexual but aren't, some who are homosexual but think they are heterosexual, etc etc. Sexuality is very very complex, and I don't think it's the sole province of religious organisations. This is something else that irks me about religion on the whole, they may want to help people, and they genuinely do feel they are helping people, but forcing beliefs onto others isn't helping them. It feels the same to me as a depressed person at a genuinely worried psychiatrist being told that they're not depressed and the way out of depression is to think they are not depressed.

But you seem very happy in life, and most religious people are very happy in life. So, good for you! Hope to see you more around these places. And ignore the tone of some of us, people tend to get very excited in this part of the forums.

i said previously that evolution is basically a religion. everyone seems to have taken that the entirely wrong way.
when i mean religion, i dont mean worship.
here is the definition of religion:
re·li·gion
rəˈlijən/
noun: religion
1. the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
2. a particular system of faith and worship.
3. a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.
.
so just as christians and jews ascribe supreme importance to God and/or Jesus, and Muslims to Allah, so evolutionists do to evolution.
evolutionists credit a lot of things to evolution. they make evolution an important thing. its like a god to them, but they dont worship it.they "believe" in it.
sure they dont worship it like a god (never said they did) but they do ascribe supreme importance to it. and BTW, evolutions believe in evolution. just like religious people believe in their religion.
so depending on how you look at it, you can call evolution a religion.
think of it like this:
would you call atheism a religion?
i would.
for me, a religion is your opinion on the matter of god/gods, origin of the universe, ect.
so the atheist "religion" teaches there is no god and that the universe came about through the big bang. this is the atheist religion.
does this make sense?

I would say that's a poor and vague definition to go by....simply because 3 is not well defined.

A teacher dedicates his life to passing on knowledge and nurturing the next generation.
A baker dedicates his life to making great cakes and bread.
A fisherman wants to catch the biggest fish ever and is bent upon it.

Yet teaching, baking and fishing aren't religions. When people talk about religion, they more or less mean the same thing...that the believe in a divine being/beings/etc. Then they go into the nitty gritty details.

In any case, even if a person considers atheism a "religion", rather obtusely IMO, after taking a vague definition, so as to somehow make atheists seem....hypocritical in that they believe in a "religion", that doesn't change anything. An atheist doesn't believe in the same general set of beliefs as a religious person does. There are no divine beings, no holy scriptures, no places and times for worship. If anything, their beliefs are entirely anathema to religion, because they go by science and are willing to discard these beliefs and update them, whenever science updates itself.

I know multiple different people who were homosexual, became Christians, and then a few years later, they are not homosexual anymore. A few of them have very nice wives now too.

The way that I see it, is if someone is confused about Christianity, has questions about it, wants to become a Christian, or just wants to discuss it, then I will definitely discuss it. But if they don't, by no means am I going to keep yapping on about how great Jesus is or start harping on them to "convert".

so just as christians and jews ascribe supreme importance to God and/or Jesus, and Muslims to Allah, so evolutionists do to evolution.

BTW, evolutions believe in evolution. just like religious people believe in their religion.

for me, a religion is your opinion on the matter of god/gods, origin of the universe, ect.
so the atheist "religion" teaches there is no god and that the universe came about through the big bang. this is the atheist religion.
does this make sense?

The father asks why he didn't treat him with the cure earlier. The doctor stated that the cure came from an extremely rare plant, one that only ever grows during a drought.

I have to agree with Fish on this one. An omnipotent and omniscient being can pretty much do this in a million other ways without letting anyone suffer. That's the very definition of omnipotence. And combined with OMNI-science (I want you to imagine the word Omni being underlined...and in Big big letters... and bolded), it means the possibilities are limitless, so many we can't even fathom the number. So, nice story you've written there but it is just a story.

I know multiple different people who were homosexual, became Christians, and then a few years later, they are not homosexual anymore. A few of them have very nice wives now too.

And yet this proves nothing. I have to go with science on this one and science has no proof or indication that there is anything wrong (meaning, any psychiatric condition or disorder) associated with homosexuality since the '70s.

not all Buddhists (as far as I know) think of Buddha as a god.

More like 'no Buddhists' if I recall... The word Buddha tends to mean the first Buddha mostly, Sidarta Gautama (this must be totally wrong in terms of spelling. I apologise.). After that, there have been many Buddhas in history, since the word basically means 'enlightened person'. Their actions in life is what defines them. It could be described as the counterpart of Christian prophets, except they didn't predict anything. Some of them taught people various things though.

Again, I am not entirely sure about this, just working with distant memory...Basically theological education in school

would you call atheism a religion?
i would.
for me, a religion is your opinion on the matter of god/gods, origin of the universe, ect.

Weeell, good for you, but atheism is still not a religion. As HahiHa pointed out before me, atheism means just one thing...not a theist. A theist is someone who believes some form of supernatural being or a close equivalent of God exists. So an atheist is one who doesn't believe such a being exists.
Religion on the other hand is the way you 'approach' this being in your mind, the things you associate with it. So they are not related.

sure they dont worship it like a god (never said they did) but they do ascribe supreme importance to it. and BTW, evolutions believe in evolution. just like religious people believe in their religion.

Evolution is not a religion. At best you can describe it as a 'belief' which is the closest it gets to a religion in terms of similarity, and religion is far more than a belief. As for the supreme importance bit, I have to reply that yes they do, but NOT without reason. Evolution is just as important as scientists claim it is, maybe even more, but definitely not less.