ForumsWEPRLets talk about heaven....

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jonnypants23
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jonnypants23
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Farmer

I know alot of people avoid thees posts about GOD and Heaven but I just want to know peoples oppions about heaven.Do you belive there is a heaven and if you do what do you think its like?

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MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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well it was suppossed to be in one of those singing voices but i cant do it. Anyways it obviously shows what you know about going through each sacrement... Alot of the time its a test of faith. And even more of the time its the learning and understanding of your religion. But yes.. of course they are always simple rituals.


How so? Considering I"VE BEEN THREW SOME OF THEM! Be it I didn't go through all seven since I saw it was just a load of cr@p. But I got a pretty good idea of what they're like.


They've never interferred with one another, until of course on this website, where people try and make a big deal out of it.


Just wondering do you take part of the Bible like Genesis literally or metaphorically?

haha good job avoiding the question... again. Its always good to turn around ones questions too.. Especially when already we've given you the answers to why God exists. Pretty soon it will eventually gedt redundant. But anyways you still pretty much havent answered my question, every athiest here as just found a way to avoid it.


No that's not avoiding the question. If I were to tell you something improbable existed and you said you didn't believe me prove it first. You really think it would be up to you to prove it doesn't exist, or do you think it would be up to me to prove it does?
SwordlessLink
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SwordlessLink
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Nomad

ffs half these arguements are basically because athiests are to closed minded, too aragant, too ignorant, and basically exceptional selfish when it comes to their views. You can't look into any other religion, without first following all the negativities, the stuff that involves some faith... Why.. because in your head, the faith and belief switch has been cranked to off, with the handle broken off, so that you can be as narrowminded as anything possible... Which is why you cant argue faith with someone this simple minded... It doesn't work. (yes im excited to see the new retarded quotes people are going to make about my above sentence, saying how they have to see facts and all that other BS that has nothing to do with religion... it will be very exciting)..
And because you guys cant see past your retarded narrowmindedness, you can diss every catholic out there, because you either feel insecure about yourself, or you just dont have the brain capacity to understand what true faith is..


Faith (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof.

Faith is therefore illogical. That is why Atheists are so strongly against it.
SwordlessLink
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SwordlessLink
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Nomad

Oops. Credit to Dictionary.com, by the way.

nonconformist
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nonconformist
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Nomad

How so? Considering I"VE BEEN THREW SOME OF THEM! Be it I didn't go through all seven since I saw it was just a load of cr@p. But I got a pretty good idea of what they're like.

been through some of them. Congrats. What baptism (which is where you get initiated into chrisitanity.. no big deal or anything) and im guessing first communion right. Which of course you obviously didnt understand anything.

Just wondering do you take part of the Bible like Genesis literally or metaphorically?

Metaphorically.. Most of the early stuff in the bible it supposed to be metaphorical. If i was to take it literally... Well i'd be crazy. I do think God made earth, but not that way. Im sure he caused the big bang, or w/e you want to think happened, to create the world. To me, science and religion basically fall hand in hand. Sure its science that causes alot of things in the world. But i believe that God made it that way..

No that's not avoiding the question. If I were to tell you something improbable existed and you said you didn't believe me prove it first. You really think it would be up to you to prove it doesn't exist, or do you think it would be up to me to prove it does?

still beading around the bush. but o well. I first hand would want you to tell me the reasons why you believe. Which of course i have and many others have numerous times... But you cant accept it cuz its against athiesm. So its kinda redundant for me, cuz its basically having an arguement over religion with a brick wall. Then afterwards i would try to give arguementative proof that he doesn't exist. Which so far, i see nothing of, just a bunch of people saying "you explain first"... So basically im waiting for a good rebuttle, not people picking apart my sentences trying to find various flaws with in how i type. And btw, avoiding questions, includes changing the points.... Anyways it should be extremely easy for athiests to prove God isn't real. You've been saying that the whole time, but i still have yet to see proof. And you guys are all about proof right...

rafterman
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rafterman
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Nomad

still beading around the bush. but o well. I first hand would want you to tell me the reasons why you believe. Which of course i have and many others have numerous times... But you cant accept it cuz its against athiesm. So its kinda redundant for me, cuz its basically having an arguement over religion with a brick wall. Then afterwards i would try to give arguementative proof that he doesn't exist. Which so far, i see nothing of, just a bunch of people saying "you explain first"... So basically im waiting for a good rebuttle, not people picking apart my sentences trying to find various flaws with in how i type. And btw, avoiding questions, includes changing the points.... Anyways it should be extremely easy for athiests to prove God isn't real. You've been saying that the whole time, but i still have yet to see proof. And you guys are all about proof right...

You can't disprove anything that has no proof to begin with, because its a lack of something, therefor it makes no measurable impact. All that can be done is disprove any proof of his existence, and so far I have seen nothing but personal stories.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

still beading around the bush. but o well. I first hand would want you to tell me the reasons why you believe. Which of course i have and many others have numerous times... But you cant accept it cuz its against athiesm.


If God was proven to exist tomorrow I would stop being an atheist. Would I follow that God or not is another question entirely but I would believe in his existence. So it has nothing to do with clinging to the notion that god doesn't exist the way you do with religion.

If I said the Flying Spaghetti Monster was real because I felt he was real and read a book saying he was real would you consider a good enough reason to accept that the FSM was real for yourself?
This is basically what your asking atheists to do.

cuz its basically having an arguement over religion with a brick wall.


I know the feeling.

Anyways it should be extremely easy for athiests to prove God isn't real. You've been saying that the whole time, but i still have yet to see proof. And you guys are all about proof right...


As rafterman said we have found no measurable impact that can be related to God. Until such an effect in our universe is found he likely not real. What's so hard to understand about that?
nonconformist
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nonconformist
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Nomad

If I said the Flying Spaghetti Monster was real because I felt he was real and read a book saying he was real would you consider a good enough reason to accept that the FSM was real for yourself?

Hey ive never asked you guys to believe in God. Not once through this thing. Ive been on the defence trying to proove my beliefs. I aint forcing anything on anyone, but im trying to justify why catholics believe in God. And to be honest as silly as a speghetti monster sounds, i wouldnt care. I wouldnt question you about your belief. If you were literally standing there portraying why you felt a speghetti monster had made the whole universe, i wouldnt enduldge myself attacking your beliefs. Cuz its faith, and at least he's trying to believe in what he thinks is right.

As rafterman said we have found no measurable impact that can be related to God. Until such an effect in our universe is found he likely not real. What's so hard to understand about that?

Ok well like i said before. Either you got it or you dont. Its impossible for either side to win this. You believe humans are humans, and they act for themselves. Everything happens because of them. We beleive humans are humans, but there is a greater good out there... God. Basically only difference being the fact that we believe we go somewhere in the afterlife, and we think that good things happen for a reason.. And because God is helping it happen. (well thats most of us, the crazy ones everyone hears about are those hick catholics down in the southern states that are crazy.. like literally messed up crazy, and think that everyone should be smited for blasphemy... Those people need to be locked up, and in all honesty, the describe every wrong foundation in chrisitianity.)

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

Metaphorically.. Most of the early stuff in the bible it supposed to be metaphorical.


Okay, what did Jesus die for if the story of Genesis is just a metaphor? Seeing as original sin was caused by the characters in that story.

Hey ive never asked you guys to believe in God. Not once through this thing. Ive been on the defence trying to proove my beliefs.


That's fine but I haven't seen you offer any proof.

Either you got it or you dont. Its impossible for either side to win this.


Yes you can win. Given us something that proves god exists that we can observe, test, and repeat that test and get the same results. Why would we require those three things you might ask? Well it's to make sure we aren't being mislead by the evidence presented.
pc123
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pc123
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Shepherd

Why doesn't God show Himself to everyone so they will believe?
This is the question correct? well I'm going to talk about that for a minute!

People often claim that if Jesus would appear in front of them they would believe. They claim that the reason they just can't believe is because they can't see Jesus or any evidence of Him.

So why would a loving God, who wants us to believe not show Himself to us so that we would all believe? The answer is simple, He tried that once. Look at the life of Jesus; He taught here on earth for 3 years, and many people did believe but many still did not. He healed the crippled and made them walk, he healed and blind and made them see. He even raised people from the dead. Still many people did not believe that He was the Son of God.

He even told a story of a rich man who had it all and died and a poor man who also died. The rich man was in torment but could see the poor man who was now taking it easy in what we would consider heaven, but at that time, (before Jesus died) it was called paradise. After being told that there was nothing that could be done to help him, the rich man asked that the poor man be sent back to talk to his brothers so they would not end up where he was. (Luke 16:31 NIV) "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'" This verse is very important, remember Jesus told this story before His own death and resurrection. He was right, many of those who refused to believe before His death still refused to believe after He arose from the dead.

We talked before about how the disciples were changed after seeing Jesus after His death, but they did not have a clue until they saw Him. (John 20:27-29 NIV) Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Do you realize Jesus was talking to Thomas about us? We are the ones who are blessed because we believe even though we have not seen Him. But don't miss what He told Thomas: Stop doubting and believe!

I believe God gave us many of the same emotions that He has. For instance lets say that you are on one side of a deep pit and another person is on the other side. There is a bridge over the pit but you know that it is not safe so you tell the other person not to go out on it but they tell you they don't believe you. They then go out on the bridge and start jumping up and down, and sure enough the bridge gives way and they are killed. What will your reaction be? Will you admire them because they checked everything out for themselves? Or will you think they were stupid, because they would not listen to you? They could not see that the bridge was weak, so why should they believe you?

Does it make you feel good when people trust you? Does it make you mad when people refuse to trust what you say? I think God feels the same way. He has done many things to prove to mankind that He exists but we keep refusing. He takes trust and belief very seriously. (John 3:18 NIV) Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

What does God require of us to be saved? People asked Jesus the same question: (John 6:28-29 NIV) Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." The one who was sent was Jesus. That is all God requires of us, that we believe.

People claim that because God does not show Himself to them proves that He does not really want to save everyone. That is a lie: (1 Timothy 1:15-16 NIV) Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.

Don't blame God if you refuse to believe. The decision is up to you now. Don't forget that you can only make this decision while you are still alive. Once you die it is too late, your fate is sealed.

pc123
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pc123
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Shepherd

oh my! sorry it seems some people have posted in between the time it took to post. so, sorry if it seems off topic.

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

So why would a loving God, who wants us to believe not show Himself to us so that we would all believe? The answer is simple, He tried that once. Look at the life of Jesus; He taught here on earth for 3 years, and many people did believe but many still did not. He healed the crippled and made them walk, he healed and blind and made them see. He even raised people from the dead. Still many people did not believe that He was the Son of God.


So your saying God isn't giving the full disclosure treatment because it didn't work by appearing in a repetitively isolated location of the world, during a time when the most popular method of spreading information was word of mouth. Rather then appearing during a time when he could easily have a global audience, could record the miracles on numerous media, and could have his claims verified.

Anyway if Jesus did do all those things you claim he did where is the physical evidence of it? In some cases there were huge crowds of people witnessing these events, yet the only story speaking of them is in the Bible.

We talked before about how the disciples were changed after seeing Jesus after His death, but they did not have a clue until they saw Him. (John 20:27-29 NIV) Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."


This is a pretty poor lesson to teach people, seeing as it's saying it's better to believe without first verifying the claim. So in a way Thomas had the right idea to question that Jesus had risen.

However this is also making the stories look false. Thomas along with the rest of the people follow Jesus around sure seem like they have short term memories. They constantly see Jesus preforming these miracles and yet are always surprised that he could do it. Sure it would be a surprise maybe the first few miracles but after that you'd think they would figure out that this guy can do the seemingly impossible and while still amazed wouldn't find it unbelievable that he could pull it off.

I believe God gave us many of the same emotions that He has. For instance lets say that you are on one side of a deep pit and another person is on the other side. There is a bridge over the pit but you know that it is not safe so you tell the other person not to go out on it but they tell you they don't believe you. They then go out on the bridge and start jumping up and down, and sure enough the bridge gives way and they are killed. What will your reaction be? Will you admire them because they checked everything out for themselves? Or will you think they were stupid, because they would not listen to you? They could not see that the bridge was weak, so why should they believe you?


We know from past experience that bridges can be unsafe. We could verify that the bridge was unsafe without harm. Even if we ddidn't test it we could reasonably assume it was unsafe based on past experience. However the claim is far more incredible then that. It's like telling the person not to cross the bridge because an alien is going to fly down and destroy it and a troll is going to grab you as you fall and eat you. It's unlikely the person would believe you unless you showed them the troll and alien ship first.
The more incredible the story the more incredible the evidence has to be.

Does it make you feel good when people trust you? Does it make you mad when people refuse to trust what you say? I think God feels the same way. He has done many things to prove to mankind that He exists but we keep refusing. He takes trust and belief very seriously. (John 3:18 NIV) Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.


I wouldn't expect a supposed all loving being to be mad.
For such a supposed all powerful being doing things 2000+ years ago that was only recorded in a rewritten, and rewritten, etc. collection of books that reads like fiction with no physical proof to back up the claims made in them is hardly effort.
As for the quote it comes off as emotional blackmail and makes God look kinda like a petty @$$hole. Believe in me or get %^(&ed! I would expect a truly loving all powerful deity to say something like "Don't worry if they believe or not they can see for them self after they die. If the still don't want to be with me after seeing what I'm like for them self then so be it."

People claim that because God does not show Himself to them proves that He does not really want to save everyone. That is a lie: (1 Timothy 1:15-16 NIV) Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.


Actually God did have his chosen peoples, but anyway. Seeing as those who do nothing more then deny Gods existence is unforgiven I would hardly call his patience unlimited but rather misplaced.
Beat your slave to a bloody pulp? not even a blip on the screen.
Rape someone? Have them marry you, no problem.
Have sex with a child? Don't even talk about it.
Murder and steal? Make some arrangement and we can forgive you.
Say you don't believe? NOW YOU'VE GONE TO FAR!

Don't blame God if you refuse to believe. The decision is up to you now. Don't forget that you can only make this decision while you are still alive. Once you die it is too late, your fate is sealed.


As I stated God hasn't shown us anything. We the only so called &quotroof" can't be verified, as such can't be relied on. Also to say we only have until we die to get right with God is doing nothing more then pandering to fear of the unknown.

Though I do want to commend you for not using the tired and ridiculous free will argument as to why God doesn't pop his head out of the clouds and say "Hello world".
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

Also to add to that bridge argument. To really be accurate it wouldn't be that you know the bridge is faulty just that you think you know. Your just making an assumption that it's dangerous and saying not to cross. You could be right, you could be wrong. However all tests conducted on the bridge say it's safe.

rafterman
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rafterman
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Nomad

I believe God gave us many of the same emotions that He has. For instance lets say that you are on one side of a deep pit and another person is on the other side. There is a bridge over the pit but you know that it is not safe so you tell the other person not to go out on it but they tell you they don't believe you. They then go out on the bridge and start jumping up and down, and sure enough the bridge gives way and they are killed. What will your reaction be? Will you admire them because they checked everything out for themselves? Or will you think they were stupid, because they would not listen to you? They could not see that the bridge was weak, so why should they believe you?

Because we can see the bridge, and its not uncommon for a bridge to be weak, and bridges have been weak in the past.

I think God feels the same way. He has done many things to prove to mankind that He exists but we keep refusing. He takes trust and belief very seriously.

He has not, to me your example of sending Jesus to earth would be like showing someone a dollar and expecting them to believe you have ten million more.
SwordlessLink
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SwordlessLink
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Nomad

He has not, to me your example of sending Jesus to earth would be like showing someone a dollar and expecting them to believe you have ten million more.


This metaphor is ridiculous, although I side with you on this.

I have yet to see empirical evidence backing up the fact that God exists.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

Because we can see the bridge, and its not uncommon for a bridge to be weak, and bridges have been weak in the past.


There are just so many problems with that guys comparison it's not even funny.
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