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Forums → WEPR → Evolution, creationism and the school cirriculum
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Well to start out i dont beleive in evoltuion so the fact that other things cant be taught really ticks me off but i just want to see what people think and why.
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Evolution definitely exist. Evolving is how things survive. I just think that a bunch of religious nuts blow it out of proportion. If something is born white in a dark area, they will most likely die. It takes slight defects and mutations over thousands of years to evolve.
I'm not religios, at all. I actually consider myself Atheist. From what I see and study, all the religions that have ever existed, took the ideas from some religion before it. Then in each religion are multiple groups of people, because they think that they are right and the other person is wrong. Keep in mind that the bible was put together by Human Beings, not this god you all believe in. It's even known fact that tons of gospels were omitted from the bible because they did not appeal to the religion at the time. Hell the Judas Gospel actually portraits Judas a good friend, but shows human flaws so they couldn't have that. In the Gospel, Jesus had asked Judas to "rat him out" in order for the whole martyr plan to go into action. Judas was reluctant to do it, since Jesus was a close friend, but eventually came to the decision to do it. After ratting Jesus out, Judas actually hangs himself because he is racked with guilt from what he had done.
My point being is, why defend religion and creationism when it's pretty much just based off of what someone wrote down from what someone said from what they remember? Hell the first Gospel was written over around 100-200 years, i think, after Jesus had already been dead. Many thinks can be sewed there.
Science actually gives us evidence and fact as to what happend. They don't say "oh, we just popped out of thin air one day and were what we are now, human." Science asks how did we get here, and obviously there were beings here, long before us so something happened before that. Then they give theories as to what it could be or how it may have happened. Religion doesn't state any fact, it's all he said/she said.
Samy seems to be the only civilized being here.... Not saying he is all right, but he have actually gotten a clue of, how people should debate... There might not be much, if any signs of creationism being real, thus making it ridiculed by all the hard core evolutionists. Not a very scientific way of handling it.
The question of this topic is not is creationism should be taught on the same basis as evolution, merely is evolution should be the only theory taugh.
Would it hurt so much to have a project about creationism, to widen your horizon and thus coming aware of other theories?
Seemingly, you think the whole univers would collaps, if other than evolution is taught...
Midpoint-oppions:
Hard core evolutionists: EVOLUTION IS THE ONLY TRUTH!
Hard core creationists: CREATIONISM IS THE ONLY TRUTH!
The rest of us: Evolution is the main subject, but widening your horizon would not hurt. Teaching a little creationism would be okay. More knowledge bring more things you do not know (paradow of knowledge).
I'm not religios, at all. I actually consider myself Atheist. From what I see and study, all the religions that have ever existed, took the ideas from some religion before it. Then in each religion are multiple groups of people, because they think that they are right and the other person is wrong. Keep in mind that the bible was put together by Human Beings, not this god you all believe in. It's even known fact that tons of gospels were omitted from the bible because they did not appeal to the religion at the time. Hell the Judas Gospel actually portraits Judas a good friend, but shows human flaws so they couldn't have that. In the Gospel, Jesus had asked Judas to "rat him out" in order for the whole martyr plan to go into action. Judas was reluctant to do it, since Jesus was a close friend, but eventually came to the decision to do it. After ratting Jesus out, Judas actually hangs himself because he is racked with guilt from what he had done.
The Bible was put together by human beings, but God THROUGH humans wrote His word. Also, the Judas Gospel was not part of the Bible and was not written by followers of God. You can write anything about a person, but does that automatically make it true?
Science actually gives us evidence and fact as to what happend. They don't say "oh, we just popped out of thin air one day and were what we are now, human." Science asks how did we get here, and obviously there were beings here, long before us so something happened before that. Then they give theories as to what it could be or how it may have happened. Religion doesn't state any fact, it's all he said/she said.
Your right. Religion doesn't state any fact, its a point of view about how we got here. But, science cant answer questions about how the world was made either, no one was there to witness it. And, according to evolution, there wasn't even a person when the world was made.
Creationism is a scientific theory, which means that it has scientific evidence that suggests the possibility that that theory is true. Evolution is also a scientific theory.
Noooo. See the thing here is that creationism does not in fact have any supporting scientific evidence. There are no testable hypotheses, no experiments, no replicable data, etc. It is just a theory, with nothing to back it up besides belief. Which is why somethings as unscientific as this should not be taught in schools.
I have a serious question. Is evolution taught at private schools? I'm just wondering. There aren't any private schools in my area, so I don't have a chance to ask anyone else.
Depends on the private school, and usually on their religious affiliations. Many private religious schools will not. Since they are private, they can choose not to teach it.
Religions, of course. In my personal opinion, that's part of the reason why people believe: they need to have a way to understand.
That's fine, and people can rationalize it any way they want to. But it is inherently religious. Not science. And so it has no place in a science class.
Would it hurt so much to have a project about creationism, to widen your horizon and thus coming aware of other theories?
In a science class, yes, it would be wrong. I am not oblivious of other theories besides evolution, and I am always willing to give theories a chance. But the thing is, no one has really given me a good reason as to why creationism or intelligent design should be taught in classrooms. It is religion, it is not science. The fact is, only science, only scientifically testable, experimentally sound, data offering research can be taken seriously as science. There is absolutely none of this to support creationism or intelligent design. It is all based on faith, when evolution is based on fact. It just seems like an easy way out to me, that when we can't explain something we just say 'Oh, well that was the way God wanted it. If it is that way, it was designed that way.' I expect more from an explanation than just taking it on faith. That is not how science works.
If you asked me if creationism should be taught in theology classes, well then sure. But it has no place in a science class, because it is not science.
Evolution is the main subject, but widening your horizon would not hurt. Teaching a little creationism would be okay. More knowledge bring more things you do not know
I agree. I am currently taking a class that explores both sides of the intelligent design debate. But, this is also a course that I chose to take at a university. Not something that I was forced to learn in class. If this came up in any of my other classes, it would not be ok. Because they would be teaching religion in a science class. And teaching one religion or religious theory over another violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the United States Constitution. There is a reason why they have ruled again and again that it cannot be taught in schools. Because it is religious. And we need to maintain separation of church and state. Otherwise, we are violating rights.
No. I believe in the Big Bang theory. The question is, what catalyzed it? How was the matter created? How did it lead to the universe as we know it today? That is science, the why of what. But what answers these questions most satisfactorily?
As has been implied, science does not purport to establish, in the fullest sense, causation. Properly speaking, science deals with strengths of associations, and so philosophically there is no requirement for science to explain origin. I actually consider this satisfactory (incidentally I became more convinced of this when I discovered just how badly I fail at modal philosophy).
You probably do not, which may be one reason you're religious while I'm not!
Because they would be teaching religion in a science class. And teaching one religion or religious theory over another violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the United States Constitution.
Huh, that's a really good point that I hadn't considered before.
It engenders this question: When we talk about being taught in schools, does this necessarily imply espousal of those views? To what extent does the presentation of ideas affect the education of children in that they are assumedly incompletely autonomous? Perhaps it would be acceptable to foster discussion but not acceptable to examine religious material unless taught in a religious studies class, which would not be a mandatory subject?
That's an honest question.
BTW I had to change the title.
Evolution is not an "origin of life" theory.
@Carlie: Not saying it should be mroe than a project, really. I did one in high school, ended up telling about the Flying Spaghetti Monster. As you might see, this was just to show that ID is a possibility, but since there is no "roof", it is not likely to be right.
But I guess something being taught is not the same as showing the possibility.....
If you asked me if creationism should be taught in theology classes, well then sure. But it has no place in a science class, because it is not science.
That would bring up too many possibilities, as each religion have their own myth. Creationism seem a little too christian, thus making it creationism very small, or ignoring the other religions.
Science actually gives us evidence and fact as to what happend
Evidence, sure, but facts, no. Everything in science is temporary, every "fact" only last until it is proven wrong.
Once again a thread without equal discussion......
science deals with strengths of associations, and so philosophically there is no requirement for science to explain origin.
Yep, science specifically does not address it. Also, evolution does not deal with the origin of life, just how it changes over time.
To what extent does the presentation of ideas affect the education of children in that they are assumedly incompletely autonomous?
We can go further with this. Does asking children to accept a theory based on purely faith alter their ability to subjectively look at the world and their critical thinking abilities? At least with evolution it encourages students to think about it scientifically. It presents the evidence, shows the data, and students can logically think through it and come to their own conclusions. With creationism, they are not given this opportunity.
Perhaps it would be acceptable to foster discussion but not acceptable to examine religious material unless taught in a religious studies class, which would not be a mandatory subject?
I am not against talking about it in schools. Where I disagree, is that it should not be taught in science classes, which is where they are trying to wedge it in. If people want to talk about it in philosophy or theology classes, by all means do so. But not in science class.
Evidence, sure, but facts, no. Everything in science is temporary, every "fact" only last until it is proven wrong.
Not always. Evolution is a fact, with theories as to how it takes place. Evolution is fact, we know it occurs, we have the evidence. How it takes place, as to whether or not it is natural selection or some other theory, is still not solidified.
I did one in high school, ended up telling about the Flying Spaghetti Monster. As you might see, this was just to show that ID is a possibility, but since there is no "roof", it is not likely to be right.
I was thinking about doing an extra presentation on that as well, an interesting topic.
Evolution is a fact, with theories as to how it takes place. Evolution is fact, we know it occurs, we have the evidence.
My hardline skeptic is straining againsts its bonds!
My hardline skeptic is straining againsts its bonds!
Lolz. Well perhaps it might make it easier to handle if I better explain myself: Evolution is a scientific fact. Might not be considered as much by all scientists, or likely many religious people. But as far as science as a whole is concerned, evolution is considered fact.
Lolz. Well perhaps it might make it easier to handle if I better explain myself: Evolution is a scientific fact. Might not be considered as much by all scientists, or likely many religious people. But as far as science as a whole is concerned, evolution is considered fact.
Nothing to add
I agree with Carlie in that religious study is fine outside of the classroom, as long as other views are given as well other than Christianity. In a nation that tends to disrespect multiculturalism and block out the rest of the world, diversity in the content that we learn is the key to better interactions with other countries in the future.
For instance, say, in my World Literature class sophomore year, we read Genesis. We also read the Rig Vedas, The Wooden People, and several other creation myths. This was the best class I've ever enrolled in during high school, in my opinion, because there were so many different vantage points that we were given. (We read stuff from All Quiet on the Western Front to Siddhartha and Nectar in a Sieve)
However, as Carlie has also stated, creationism does not belong in the science classroom as there is no scientific evidence to back the theory up, and thus should not be forced upon children to learn.
Yes, evolution should be taught in schools. If any of the creationists are offended, then they can talk to their teachers personally and ask them to take a less certain approach to it. If they refuse, then the offended creationists can argue their viewpoint in class (or out). Of course, a good argument is expected if someone tries to argue it out. Otherwise, it's wasting people's time.
'Oh, well that was the way God wanted it.
Whats anything any one on here has explained by saying that
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