Before I begin, I'll state for the record that while I acknowledge the complexities of debates on abortion and the intrinsic insufficiency in attempts to delineate what should be deemed a legal right and what is murder, I am not fond of the rhetoric nor the actions of pro-life activists. This would serve as a good example why.
It has certainly not escaped anybody's notice that the shooting occured in Church. I will go further to point out the hypocrisy in using murder to purportedly prevent or denounce that which is deemed murder, though this should be entirely clear to you already!
It has furthermore not escaped the notice of the author of the article linked to earlier that despite being a "eaceful" organisation, the founder of pro-life activist group "Operation Rescue" could not resist the opportunity to air his hostile (and insensitive) views. And look, even Westboro Baptist Church got in on the action!
Therefore it is my hope that despite the significant loss to womens' health services that this signifies, that this event may elevate Dr. Tiller to a state of martyrdom, thus strengthening the momentum of (for lack of a better term) morally liberal movements.
That's true. Although I feel some people might fail to recognize this whenever somebody goes to an extreme over something. But it almost always involves religion. That's too bad, because it can be a cool thing if people don't abuse it.
Or lack of. A lot of extremists are against religion.
Well, yeah. Either way, centers around beliefs about the universe, shall we say. Religion has helped me, but when you've got religious wars and stuff... it makes me sad to know it doesn't help everyone. With a teardrop too. :'(
Personally, I'm for abortion. But I noticed something that few people, for or against abortion, seem to realize. Some of you might recognize this as the Stem Cell argument.
While the murder of Doctor Tiller horrifies me, especially because it took place in his place of peace and worship, Dr. Tiller could very easily be described as a murderer. Not because he terminated (I hesitate to say 'kill', that issue still under debate) a fetus, rather that he terminated a possible life force. One of those fetuses could have been the next Mahatma Gandhi, or the next Barack Obama. Likewise, this child could have been a Ted Bundy. We just don't know. That's the problem. What of the possible life?
Dr. Tiller could very easily be described as a murderer. Not because he terminated (I hesitate to say 'kill', that issue still under debate) a fetus, rather that he terminated a possible life force. One of those fetuses could have been the next Mahatma Gandhi, or the next Barack Obama. Likewise, this child could have been a Ted Bundy. We just don't know. That's the problem. What of the possible life?
That's always been my assumption when it came to abortion, actually. But either way, abortions will happen whether or not we kill every abortion doctor we find. There's always going to be some underground doctor willing to perform abortion, so I don't think the possible life comes into play with Dr. Tiller. Back on topic, people who go out and terrorize abortion clinics and doctors need to look at the big picture. It will NEVER halt abortion in the long run. It's stupid AND evil. Lose-lose.
While I agree terrorizing abortion clinics is just about the stupidest thing that you can do, you failed to see my point. It's not that people will always give abortions. Of course they will. But the question I posed does not relate. My question: Is it morally right to preform abortions? Ponder that.
My question: Is it morally right to preform abortions? Ponder that.
Place for ponder Lots of abortion opinions, a lot from me, on the last four or five pages or so, as well as some good arguments from both sides along the way.
God has a master plan. If your not part of it, he takes your life away. However, man, like in everything, tries its damnedest to mess with that. So, in the end, it is hard to tell if that fetus was meant to be here or not.
God has a master plan. If your not part of it, he takes your life away. However, man, like in everything, tries its ****edest to mess with that. So, in the end, it is hard to tell if that fetus was meant to be here or not.
If that's truly the case, then perhaps abortion doctors are in part, the hand of God. After all, if God is all-powerful & has a plan, and wants a baby to live, he's not going to let some human mess with him & abort the baby.
...just kidding. I felt like saying something snappy for my 6000th post :P
Anyway, to real discussion- I am slightly uneasy about arguments of potential, as this then wanders into an area of speculative modal thought that just throws me off...outcomes are outcomes!
In a way though, it's inevitable that such arguments make their way into my judgement given that the WHO judges global medical burden on the basis of prospective and predictive measures like life expectancy and Disability Adjusted Life Years. The issue here is that such measurements are difficult (or controversial) to the point of meaninglessness- they can't be made in any real practical sense otherwise you'd have the PC police breathing fire up your a**. And the epidemiologists breathing fire down your throat.
The killing shouldn't have happened, but this doctor was a horrible person. He had killed 50,000 children in abortian, and somehow he was a deacon at a church. I have no respect for this horrible man, and I'm more happy for him to be dead then alive.
The killing shouldn't have happened, but this doctor was a horrible person. He had killed 50,000 children in abortian, and somehow he was a deacon at a church. I have no respect for this horrible man, and I'm more happy for him to be dead then alive.
"The killing shouldn't have happened, but these mothers are horrible persons. They make a man kill their children in abortion, even though he was a deacon at a church. I have no respect for these mothers, and I would have been happy if they died with their children." ^ Seems wonderfully cruel, right?
I wonder how the argument would be, if there lacked one detail: Doctor shot in church. Nothing more than that. The reason for the murder of him could be "disagreement in way to do work" or something similar.
Well, I surf these forums often forgetting how young the average user is, and the lack of world experience clouding their judgments. Not everyone, of course, but for discussing social issues, there are a lot of younguns on here.
I've seen crazy estimates from you pro-lifers, saying he's killed 'many' babies, '50,000' children, '1 million' fetuses. What's the real count, huh?
Abortion is legal. This doctor was doing a legal procedure on patients who gave full consent. That is hardly murder. That is providing a health service to the public that you pro-lifers would love to take away. What is murder, is that he was gunned down by some pro-life fanatic.
If there wasn't a single mention of his work history, you'd all feel so sad and sympathetic that a good Christian was brutally murdered. Throw his work history in, and suddenly it's an eye for an eye, and you're glad he's dead. You're all terrible hypocrites!
I am 100% pro-choice. I think that if a woman wants a procedure done, with the money to pay for, and hospitals have the technology to do, she should be allowed that. You pro-lifers aren't pro-life at all - you're anti-woman and anti-choice. You are glad this man is dead, because you feel sad for the loss of some fetuses. It's awful.
I guess I should quit rambling, as I'm just furthering the same points that have already been made. For any of you pro-lifers, take a glance over this page. It's from George Carlin, a great intellectual comedian, but he makes some very valid points in a humorous way.
