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arkaninerenegade
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arkaninerenegade
785 posts
Nomad

Many people thing Islam because of the events surrounding 9/11. But actually Islam is the right religion. The Prophet (peace be upon him) told us to be kind to each other, to respect our parents, and too worship the one and only lord Allah the most gracious, the most merciful. There will be a day, the day of judgment were we will stand before our lord and be judged by our deeds. To be a Muslim you must do the five pillars of islam.
1.Ashahadah (Believing Allah is the one and only lord and Muhammad is his messenger)
2.Salat(5 daily prayers, Dawn,Noon,Afternoon,Evening,Dusk
3.Zakat(Charity 2.5% of ones wealth)
4.Hajj (pilgrimage to mekkah at least once in your life if healthy and wealthy)
5.Fasting(Restricting food and water for a whole day in the month of ramadan)
Also you must read the quran the words of Allah.(Like the Bible)

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Lennywins
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Lennywins
130 posts
Nomad

Nicely put gwoodruler. If only more people understood this.

money1654
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money1654
4 posts
Nomad

who in there right mind would believe in ISLAM

Devoidless
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Devoidless
3,675 posts
Jester

Who in their right minf would beleive in Christianity? Over the history of Christianity tenfold the ammount of attrocities have been in the name of their god compared to any other religion.

Besides, Islam has a lot of good teaching and virtues as does every other religion. And it also has it's bad points...like everyother religion.

Strop
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Strop
10,816 posts
Bard

Hm, I see this argument used alot in the course of standard Christian apologetics to the effect that 'God is a scientific fact'...

Daniel McNeely said:

The odds are all the atmospheric pressure being correct when the Big Bang happened (so that earth would not collapse on its self) is the same odds as a hurricane hitting a junk yard and assembling a 747 jumbo jet.


Let's assume this is true, or at least in the ballpark. Let's at least assume that the thrust of this is correct: that the chance of the events happening the way they have happened (as described by scientific theory) are infinitesimal.

My problem is that I'm still confronted with a big "so what?" A similar rationale is used to raise questions (those Boltzmann brains again) or to question other theories (evolution) but probablistic arguments don't actually count (in formal logical terms) as compelling evidence for a creator. Why? Well, let's think of this question:

What is the significance of applying probablistic arguments retrospectively? Within the world of scientific endeavour, one might suggest that a theory that is deemed "more likely" than another theory seems to be a "better" theory than the other. But if all the theories appear to have an infinitesimal probability, does this necessarily mean that we should abandon all theories? Not necessarily...even assuming that the fundaments for model-building themselves might not be appropriate (conceptual advancements in quantum theory reveal the potential of employing multiple systems of thought), this doesn't mean that one ought to abandon trying to describe something, right? What's the point? It's not as if science was there to explain the how and the why as well as describe the what.

This is a trap that many people fall into: somehow they think that if we cannot conceptualise something into more abstract terms, it cannot exist. "Omg", they say, "does this mean I cannot actually exist because it was too unlikely!?" I believe I need not address this any further, except to say you should probably try to get over your consciousness, because it's yanking you around again!

We're not at the stage where God's sitting in a giant sandbox saying "okay, let's set all the conditions like this and that, fiddle with this here and give it a little zap and LET THERE BE LIGHT!!!" (Apologies for the blasphemy, I'm trying to make this a little more accessible...) We're at the stage where we're arguing over this, i.e. it's already happened, so we're trying to come up with different explanations for the same reality. Or, more appropriately, trying to address different facets of our perception of this common reality.

Let's take a brief look at that flip-side, shall we? Let's say that this 1E-22 probability "didn't happen" and the Earth collapsed on itself. So what? How many contingencies would we have to change to create a plausible situation from this kind of scenario? Would the nature of life be different? Would there be no life at all? If so...is that scary?

If you answered yes, chances are that you'd be more amenable to thinking that there was a real, certin, concrete reason that you're here today reading this awfully long post written by some random over the internetz. Chances also are, in this case, that this comes in the form of a separate yet all-encompassing entity that you believe is real.

However, I'm not at all suggesting that God is necessarily a mental crutch (although sometimes God can resemble that in times of need and there's nothing wrong with that). I'm saying that whether you need to believe in God is still up to you. I personally don't find contemplating my own neutral insignificance at all scary, but that's just me. One can be rationally aware that they've made this decision to place their faith in the Lord, or any other deity/set of deities/spiritual existence for that matter, but I simply had to address any implication that saying that the sheer unlikelihood of our existence is a proof of faith over theory, or even a proof of faith itself is not rationally coherent.

(Besides...think about it. "Proof of faith?&quot
Strop
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Strop
10,816 posts
Bard

...it took me two minutes of panicked searching to realise that Dan kinda hijacked the Islam thread and I wasn't commenting in the "Big bang or God" thread.

Go me. Now I'll wait for my heart to stop palpitating c.c

godofsalt
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godofsalt
49 posts
Nomad

theres a saying from the place i come from and they say all religions are perfect its just the people who practice them wrong.

The problem is many muslims are in the "third world countries" which dont have a high literacy rate eg afghanistan. this causes problems as they dont understand the Quran properly and believe to perform genocide by blowing themselves up will grant them an afterlife in heaven.
but
islam is against this idea, the quran is against this and this is not jihad

hojoko
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hojoko
508 posts
Peasant

Arkaninerenegade said:

Islam is the right religion.


Now, I know it is a bit late to be commenting on this, but there is no right religion. All religions are equal, and Christ is no better than Mohamed, and vice versa. My point is that no matter what religion you are your beliefs should be respected, whether Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, or whatever. This is the 21st century! We may be doing horrible stuff, but everyone has the right to be respected!

Also, I always wondered, aren't God and Allah one and the same, because doesn't Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all start with Abraham?
Strop
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Strop
10,816 posts
Bard

Yo hojoko, you may wish to look up unitarian universalism. There was a term to describe positions of the general sort (UU being the epitome of this form of thinking in a total sense), but I've forgotten what it was.

StrategyGamble
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StrategyGamble
129 posts
Nomad

I believe in our God as the muslims do this too but they are too furious when there is something bat about their Alah and it leads to terrorism ( a Jihad, their Holy war against us, christians is too cruel and brutal. I think they are not pacifists and things and they "defend" their god by bombs and bullets

godofsalt
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godofsalt
49 posts
Nomad

as i said before the idea of jihad is mistaken by everyone and most muslims
jihad means to fight evil which actually means to fight your temptations of doing the wrong thing
a muslim is only allowed to take arms and fight when his country is invaded but cannot start war
islam means peace

kanethebrain
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kanethebrain
242 posts
Nomad

@zihark: yea, consider the title of the forum includes religion, this seems like the place for it. People want to talk about it, why not let them? If you don't want to, nobody's forcing you.

@Strop: Excellent point. You neatly exposed a lot of the logical fallacies apologists use, without having to be inflammatory. My hat's off to you.

@The thread in general: Islam is no better or worse than any other religion, in my humble opinion. I'm an atheist, I think all religions are silly :-P

The thing is, people will do great things and horrible things, both in the name of religion. Some people are awful, and will use religion to hide behind when they commit atrocities. Some people are great, but too humble to take credit and ascribe their good deeds to religion. Some people are dumb, and will do whatever their religious leader tells them to, since "well, it's my religion", whether or not the leader is telling them things that actually match their religion. Some people are intelligent and believe, and do the right thing when it applies and consider it metaphor or outdated when their religion doesn't match their reality. You can't blame religion for all the bad in the world, but you can't give it credit for all the good things either.

Islam has definitely had it's good moments. When Europe was in the dark ages, Islamic scholars were unlocking the mysteries of the world. Some of the best architecture in the world is Islamic. They were a political force more unified than any other empire for hundreds of years.

Then again, you have the Wahabbis, Al-Qaeda, and holocaust deniers.

Like I said, I'm atheist. I would prefer if everyone left their religion and just got on with life. But if someone tells me they're a Muslim, I have the same reaction as if they were Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Shinto, or anything else: "Meh".

godofsalt
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godofsalt
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Nomad

@ kanethebrain - you cannot say religion is silly even though you dont believe in god
im not a religous person but i say religion is good... it helps people spritually in hard times "god is just testing me" you can say and pass hard times without loosing self esteem
praying helps you use more of your brain and most intelligent people of the world have been religous people
religion also unites people which is good for our social lives(eg going to church on sunday or going to mosque on friday)

Strop
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Strop
10,816 posts
Bard

@kanethebrain: yeah...I've had to read a lot of these texts (particularly ones by investigative journo Lee Strobel) armed with a notepad and pen. I must say, my attempt at objective critique looked awfully one-sided...

@godofsalt: you just did the equivalent of "oh noooo he din't!"

And to that, I think the reply is "Oh yeeesss he did!" Because one is perfectly entitled to say it. 'sides, I think he was being silly too :P

But the stage is perfectly well set for a &quotros and cons of religion" debate I've been looking for the place where the pros of religion could be expounded on from a perspective other than strictly religious.

kanethebrain
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kanethebrain
242 posts
Nomad

@godofsalt: Blaming god for your problems or relying on god for your solutions isn't going to fix anything. Who will be better off: The person that says "god is testing me" or the guy that says "well, time to figure out something better to do to get out of this"?

I really doubt praying does anything for your intelligence. I also seem to recall surveys that show that more intelligent people are less religious. Even if it didn't, claiming something must be right because an intelligent person believes it doesn't mean it's right. Lenin and Stalin were pretty smart dudes, but communism isn't a good idea.

And there's no reason you have to get your social interaction from a religious community. Why not join a group or club that does something productive instead?

@Strop
Oh dear, Lee Strobel. One of my friends gave me "The Case for Faith" in a misguided attempt to convert me. I read the entire thing only through sheer force of will. That man can pack more logical fallacies, misunderstandings, rumors, and plain falsehood into one sentence than anyone else I've read.

I was being a little silly. Although I do think we'd be better off without religion.

I'd be happy to debate the pros and cons of religion, as long as it was a good discussion and didn't degenerate into "well, you're dumb" vs "you're going to heck!".

godofsalt
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godofsalt
49 posts
Nomad

@ kanethebrain
i never said blaming god for our problems or relying on god to solve our problems will help. all i said believing in god can help to raise the morale of a person in a hard situation
and praying doesnt make you smarter, if you are religous praying makes you more conscious and youll use more percentage of your brain(this is scientifically approved)
many men of science(i didnt mean politicians) have been religous people
eg. Galileo Galolei(proved that earth rotates around the sun) & Georges Lemaitre(proposed Bing Bang Theory - he was a catholic monk)

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