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firetail_madness
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firetail_madness
20,591 posts
Blacksmith

So, since my last competition was pretty much a discussion, I'll now close that and move over to this general colony discussion (the others are all specific)

TALK ABOUT ANYTHING RELATED TO COLONY (and beef burgers)

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trying
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trying
468 posts
Bard

Yos just to let you know many RTS games have units that do a range of damage like Warcraft

SoymasterYos
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SoymasterYos
971 posts
Nomad

WOW is not RTS, it's an MMORPG.

SoymasterYos
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SoymasterYos
971 posts
Nomad

I just realized Warcraft and WOW are two different franchises. In a balanced RTS, probability only exist in the metagame.

trying
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trying
468 posts
Bard

Warcraft is so balanced that matches are basically decided by micro

DracoTheDragon
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DracoTheDragon
102 posts
Nomad

robability doesn't belong in a RTS. If you want probability, play a RPG.


Now your leading into game design.

Probability does not need to be specifically added to a certain game genre. You may add whatever you like to whatever you enjoy. A game by definition is an enjoyable activity with a player and victory condition.

In this case probability is something that CAN BE USED TO BALANCE THIS GAME. A balanced game is something the players enjoy. like literature each game influences another game. For the sake of balancing implement rpg, gambling, and lot of other genres concept of luck into the game and you will balance it.
SoymasterYos
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SoymasterYos
971 posts
Nomad

You were talking about damage ranges. That is what doesn't belong in an RTS. Colony has lots of probability factors. Communist resource kills. Multiple possible targets.

DracoTheDragon
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DracoTheDragon
102 posts
Nomad

Colony has lots of probability factors. Communist resource kills.


How many people actually use communist as a main gov. If its over 10 then all accept its a common probability factor when its used.

Multiple possible targets.

That's one. I don't consider 1 a lot. 1 out of the many factors you say there are in a RTS

You were talking about damage ranges. That is what doesn't belong in an RTS.


In an RTS, as in other wargames, the participants position and maneuver units and structures under their control to secure areas of the map and/or destroy their opponents' assets. In a typical RTS, it is possible to create additional units and structures during the course of a game. This is generally limited by a requirement to expend accumulated resources. These resources are in turn garnered by controlling special points on the map and/or possessing certain types of units and structures devoted to this purpose. More specifically, the typical game of the RTS genre features resource gathering, base building, in-game technological development and indirect control of units.

The above is taken from wikipedia on 10/23/11. Author and publisher is unidentified.

Real time strategy games (RTS) offer an excellent blend of action and strategy. The majority of rts games are played in a bird's eye or top down perspective allowing players easy navigation and jump around to control units and buildings across game maps and campaigns. Unlike turn based strategy games where you have the ability to take your time, in real time strategy games, all movement, construction, combat, research and more are all occurring in real time.

The paragraph above is taken from compationgames.about.com from Michael Klappenbach on 10/23/11. Publisher isnt specified.

None of this states or suggests why you cannot add damage ranges.
Haru13
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Haru13
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Nomad

I hate the people who havk and then accuse you of it. also they should make a online colony tourenament to find the best team of colony players. each team would consist of two online users. no guests.

Haru13
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Haru13
4 posts
Nomad

As a person who plays as a communist i find it hard to get money as fast but since marines are free i end up with deploying hundreds of them each match. when i finally have money I usually end up getting stronger units with the cash and men coming in so quickly. the only problem then is power. lucky the armory helps with all three needs and is a big part of everyones strategy. no matter which faction you are. i have noticed that most people who hack blame others first before they get called out by the rest of the group and when the game ends all hell breaks loose in the lobby.

DracoTheDragon
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DracoTheDragon
102 posts
Nomad

lucky the armory helps with all three needs and is a big part of everyones strategy. no matter which faction you are.


Very true but armory is quite underpowered. True you can tech up to tier 3 but the resources used to create it and the time it uses to create it and the profit you gain form it hinders its usability
Haru13
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Haru13
4 posts
Nomad

that is true. It and wasted time can result in defeat on any battlefield. The armory also takes forever to build and save up for. But it is a great source of recources and is therefore useful to everyone. I have fought many battles where the first or second thing someone gets is the armory. personally the first thing i get is the bank to insure that i have enough money to support the war effort.

DracoTheDragon
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DracoTheDragon
102 posts
Nomad

But it is a great source of recources and is therefore useful to everyone.


No it isnt. By far it is not useful for resources. We both know a armory costs 60 25 25 0 (standard order). Armory Offers 9 of a resource every 10 seconds.Mathematically That means it takes over a full mintue to get a surplus from Money Alone. This is not counting for Your manpower loss and energy loss which will also slow down your tempo.

I have fought many battles where the first or second thing someone gets is the armory.


The sad part is that theres only a handful of people who are amazing at this game. Nearly none of them use armories in 2vs2 or 1on1.

Though there are many strategies that work well, they still lose to stratagies who do not use armory constantly.

Theory: why armory
-Extra resource gain
-Flexible resource gain
-Access to tier 3 post and forge

Logic: Why not
-Deep debt- 60 25 25 0 is a huge debt. Thats about the cost of approxiately 5 units. Less units typically mean theres a lower chance to maintain field control, which means less surplus of influence. Your 60 money is put to better use on upgradess such as sanctum or solar grid
-Do not need flexibility- You do not use all 4 resources. You mainly use money, influence, then ether manpower or energy. A bank, generator, or hospital sustains that better than an armory
-Tier 3 post and forge die to micro- Proper micro of influence units slaughters Bqs, Hovers, Sakatas, and gladiators. If it cant kill that unit it definately kill the base before the unit is created. Ex saint-kills all, mod spider kills base, special forces kills base
-Special operations- Though it is true ops cost much more than an armory, it has 1 difference. Operations kill faster than tier 3. An upgrade to tier 3 post cost 110 money and 50 energy. You would definately get ops sooner than tier 3 and spawn atleast a 2 influence units. Special forces kill base, prides set up a rush, and far snipers prevent pinbreaks.

personally the first thing i get is the bank to insure that i have enough money to support the war effort.


That is a good idea. Rushes and pins from the first buiding usually do not work against high tier players(unless you have tthe micro). But even then turbo games dont turn that well if the defender gains tempo

just misc. info there are a few builds that work decently(though not the best) that does follow the armory and turbo concept

Specs first- Tends to go with pride or special forces force. The purpose is to hold a pin with a superior range unit and eventually develop into a saint or roman rush

Fasci Forge first- Goes with a combo of a scout and roman pin. Designed to give novice post players and issue. Develops with generator second for a roman rush. If needed as sakata rush

Commi anti mon- Hosp first. Goes for medic influence grab, Retreats with the first threat(tanks, romans, or mod phant). Develops into post 2nd then goes for a slight air defense and a overwhelming number of tanks and medics. The medics allow for eventual development into saints

DTD build(monarchy)- This builds was used to counter a majority of tdh build. Goes bank forge arm ops then tech as high as possible or demo bank for hosp. Start off with romans to stall your opponents tanks and earn influence. Use armory's mod phant to destroy opposing tanks. Use ops for a pride pin anf missile defense. Ether tech up forge for anti air and get prides or demo your bank for hospital for a medicated pride and far snipers. This can also be changed sightly to counter fascist. Simply go ops 3rd.
inflict
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inflict
381 posts
Shepherd

The sad part is that theres only a handful of people who are amazing at this game. Nearly none of them use armories in 2vs2 or 1on1.


often in closly matched 2v2s an armory appears and somebody ends up with bqs.

-Tier 3 post and forge die to micro- Proper micro of influence units slaughters Bqs, Hovers, Sakatas, and gladiators. If it cant kill that unit it definately kill the base before the unit is created. Ex saint-kills all, mod spider kills base, special forces kills base


to tier 3 post and forge (with enough recorces) will destroy an influ rush baced army, if they meat 1v1. and rebember the player with tier 3 will also have other units. but yeah if played proberly, most rushes will destroy the bace before tier 3 is obtained.
DracoTheDragon
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DracoTheDragon
102 posts
Nomad

often in closly matched 2v2s an armory appears and somebody ends up with bqs.


Very true however the main discussion im refering to is Armory vs no armory. Not end game armory.

to tier 3 post and forge (with enough recorces) will destroy an influ rush baced army if they meat 1v1.


If you reach tier 3, you spend around double the amount of influence units and waste more time compared these builds. Furthermore, due to this debt(assuming micro/macro is equal) you will lose field advantage. Loss of field advantage also means more influence and a pin. which is more trouble for you.

and rebember the player with tier 3 will also have other units.


This is also false. Like i said the debt will lower your amount of units, losing field advantage and influence. However the inverse is true. The person who has other units has influence tier 3 units(saints/mod sakata/ etc.). The primary example would be saints. Spam cheap units and you can easily take down bqs. Hovers cant even attack air so thats not an issue. Forge can also be solved by saints however due to scout and sakata mk II threat, its more reasonable to use special forces. Dual's not a possible solution because of the increase of the already huge debt. Having both armory and ops is unreasonable for all govs except monarchy, which for the economial reasons, cant do tier 3 well

but yeah if played proberly, most rushes will destroy the bace before tier 3 is obtained.

to tier 3 post and forge (with enough recorces) will destroy an influ rush baced army,


These 2 quotes contradict each other. If most rushes kill base then most of the time you wouldnt even reach tier 3 to even kill the rush based army
inflict
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inflict
381 posts
Shepherd

Very true however the main discussion im refering to is Armory vs no armory. Not end game armory.

yes, very true.

If you reach tier 3, you spend around double the amount of influence units and waste more time compared these builds. Furthermore, due to this debt(assuming micro/macro is equal) you will lose field advantage. Loss of field advantage also means more influence and a pin. which is more trouble for you.[quote]

that dosent stop tier 3 being stronger, unit for unit.

This is also false. Like i said the debt will lower your amount of units, losing field advantage and influence. However the inverse is true. The person who has other units has influence tier 3 units(saints/mod sakata/ etc.). The primary example would be saints. Spam cheap units and you can easily take down bqs. Hovers cant even attack air so thats not an issue. Forge can also be solved by saints however due to scout and sakata mk II threat, its more reasonable to use special forces. Dual's not a possible solution because of the increase of the already huge debt. Having both armory and ops is unreasonable for all govs except monarchy, which for the economial reasons, cant do tier 3 well


i agree with that.

but yeah if played proberly, most rushes will destroy the bace before tier 3 is obtained.

to tier 3 post and forge (with enough recorces) will destroy an influ rush baced army,

These 2 quotes contradict each other. If most rushes kill base then most of the time you wouldnt even reach tier 3 to even kill the rush based army[quote]

here is were you misunderstand:

the first one is what would happpen if 2 evenly matched players 1v1ed
and one of then teched more and the other rushed more.

the second, was purely the oldschool way if deciding who was better.

if you read it closely states that:
by the point in the game were a player techs to tier three and has enough resores to bring out 2 or three of the units. if not already defeated, or pined with vast amounts of air and ground units, the tier 3 plyer should be able to pin break, and win.

u might say that its unrealistic. but remeber its more so than asumeing the players are evenly matched, considering no two players are.
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