General Colony Discussion - Armor Games Community

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DracoTheDragon

102 posts

Nomad

Posted October 30, '11 4:49pm UTC

that dosent stop tier 3 being stronger, unit for unit.

Well now your applying 1 fact. Yes i do agree that a tier 3 unit will kill a majority a tier 1/2/influence tier 3, however you will never see that in a game unless someone completely goofed.(and of course assuming both players are equal all around then they both goofed).

the first one is what would happpen if 2 evenly matched players 1v1ed
and one of then teched more and the other rushed more.

to tier 3 post and forge (with enough recorces) will destroy an influ rush baced army,

if you read it closely states that:
if not already defeated, or pined with vast amounts of air and ground units, the tier 3 plyer should be able to pin break, and win.

in no way does that state that the current situation is a failed pin or rush.

u might say that its unrealistic. but remeber its more so than asumeing the players are evenly matched, considering no two players are.

Considering this is a mental analysis its logical that both players are equal in skill. However if you think about the level of play then results start getting wacky. At lower levels the pinbreaks would win. At higher levels the pins will win.

[quote]that dosent stop tier 3 being stronger, unit for unit.[/quote]\r\n\r\nWell now your applying 1 fact. Yes i do agree that a tier 3 unit will kill a majority a tier 1/2/influence tier 3, however you will never see that in a game unless someone completely goofed.(and of course assuming both players are equal all around then they both goofed).\r\n\r\n[quote]the first one is what would happpen if 2 evenly matched players 1v1ed\r\nand one of then teched more and the other rushed more.[/quote]\r\n\r\n[quote]to tier 3 post and forge (with enough recorces) will destroy an influ rush baced army,[/quote]\r\n\r\n[quote]if you read it closely states that:\r\nif not already defeated, or pined with vast amounts of air and ground units, the tier 3 plyer should be able to pin break, and win.[/quote]\r\n\r\nin no way does that [i]state[/i] that the current situation is a failed pin or rush.\r\n\r\n[quote]\r\nu might say that its unrealistic. but remeber its more so than asumeing the players are evenly matched, considering no two players are.[/quote]\r\n\r\nConsidering this is a mental analysis its logical that both players are equal in skill. However if you think about the level of play then results start getting wacky. At lower levels the pinbreaks would win. At higher levels the pins will win.

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roger1

3 posts

Nomad

Posted October 30, '11 11:58pm UTC

Ive read a lot about why not to use armorys. In my stratgy i use 2 of 'em. because the other resources structers make to much resources. that sound funny? its not, with the 2 armorys, a tier 3 OP and a tier 3 hospital, i can mass produce BQ's (im being facits) when my money/energy gets to 300, i switch the armorys to manpower to make even MORE bq :-) works well. i have an 80% win rate, i would have more but theres these noobs called "hackers" that are so bad at the game they have to hack to beat me, and others. Sad isn't it...

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jordster5

70 posts

Nomad

Posted October 31, '11 12:54am UTC

Roger hacks >.> and btw Please please Pleassee Draco try and keep the comments short and simple tooo lonngg

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B_O_B

1 posts

Nomad

Posted October 31, '11 1:22am UTC

Colony is an amazing game. The units are great and the strategic part of it is the best. But the only part i dont like about it is I can't talk in the pre-game and lobby chat boxes? Anyone know anything about this? I can talk ingame though.

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trying

468 posts

Bard

Posted October 31, '11 3:29am UTC

You have a underscore in your name. It's a long standing bug

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inflict

381 posts

Shepherd

Posted October 31, '11 7:25am UTC

Well now your applying 1 fact. Yes i do agree that a tier 3 unit will kill a majority a tier 1/2/influence tier 3, however you will never see that in a game unless someone completely goofed.(and of course assuming both players are equal all around then they both goofed).

again, your asuming players are equal. and not only that, but ur aplying they are both near perfect.

i agree with all the other things you say.

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yousirnaime

2 posts

Nomad

Posted November 1, '11 6:15pm UTC

Anyone else waiting for Colony 2?

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tom0000009

1,308 posts

Peasant

Posted November 3, '11 11:11pm UTC

Yes but we must wait for Krin to finish the projects he has planed before Colony 2. Looking forward to trying his new sinjid when it comes out.

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apersonthatrocks

1 posts

Nomad

Posted November 3, '11 11:19pm UTC

they are making a long range stakata in colony 2 that heals all around

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jordster5

70 posts

Nomad

Posted November 4, '11 12:23am UTC

lol... u really think long range will make everything better? Try making it missile proof then we're talking

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tom0000009

1,308 posts

Peasant

Posted November 4, '11 2:06am UTC

sakata mk2 is missile proof. It can take like 3 missiles before dieing.

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DracoTheDragon

102 posts

Nomad

Posted November 4, '11 3:18am UTC

Roger hacks >.>

LOL

try and keep the comments short and simple

ok i will try

again, your asuming players are equal. and not only that, but ur aplying they are both near perfect.

Dont we have to assume both players are equal? cuz pretty much all the time the skilled player wins. And i guess near perfects an overstatement. A player with micro and macro can do it quite well. but i guess a LL player would lose most of the time in this case

its not, with the 2 armorys, a tier 3 OP and a tier 3 hospital, i can mass produce BQ's (im being facits) when my money/energy gets to 300, i switch the armorys to manpower to make even MORE bq :-) works well.

Well lets see your logic. Your saying you can win nearly all your games because of 1 unit. The Black queen. And you say that dual armories plus tier 3 hosp will also give you the resources too get your bq swarm.

The victory condition of this game is to kill all units and have the base demolished.

Your build im assuming is armory armory hospital sanc post all the way to tier 3. Thats about 350 dollars in cash. Since your fascist teching i might as well exploit your weakness. Monarchy rush. A bq costs 50 mp while a saint costs 50 influence. So roughly they cost about the same. However as shown in battle the saint kills bq with a distraction and through micro. This result is so significant in fact that it is believed you can probably 3 vs 1 with bqs vs saints. However thats the more crude way of killing your queen strat. Theres also simply replacing the saints with a sphinx and have a stream of chronites crashing at your base. Or you could also use the special forces rush and you would be dead before you upgrade your hospital. Point is, You are too vulnerable and when you do get your killing machine, its already too late to stop the massive army at your gate.

i have an 80% win rate

unfortunately win ratios are misleading. Same with rankings. I can simply reset my account to a 0% win ratio and still win. The only real way to show your knowledge is through action logic and facts

[quote]Roger hacks >.> [/quote]\r\n\r\nLOL\r\n\r\n[quote]try and keep the comments short and simple [/quote]\r\n\r\nok i will [i]try[/i]\r\n\r\n[quote]again, your asuming players are equal. and not only that, but ur aplying they are both near perfect.[/quote]\r\n\r\nDont we have to assume both players are equal? cuz pretty much all the time the skilled player wins. And i guess near perfects an overstatement. A player with micro and macro can do it quite well. but i guess a LL player would lose most of the time in this case\r\n\r\n[quote]its not, with the 2 armorys, a tier 3 OP and a tier 3 hospital, i can mass produce BQ's (im being facits) when my money/energy gets to 300, i switch the armorys to manpower to make even MORE bq :-) works well.[/quote]\r\n\r\nWell lets see your logic. Your saying you can win nearly all your games because of 1 unit. The Black queen. And you say that dual armories plus tier 3 hosp will also give you the resources too get your bq swarm.\r\n\r\nThe victory condition of this game is to kill all units and have the base demolished. \r\n\r\nYour build im assuming is armory armory hospital sanc post all the way to tier 3. Thats about 350 dollars in cash. Since your fascist teching i might as well exploit your weakness. Monarchy rush. A bq costs 50 mp while a saint costs 50 influence. So roughly they cost about the same. However as shown in battle the saint kills bq with a distraction and through micro. This result is so significant in fact that it is believed you can probably 3 vs 1 with bqs vs saints. However thats the more crude way of killing your queen strat. Theres also simply replacing the saints with a sphinx and have a stream of chronites crashing at your base. Or you could also use the special forces rush and you would be dead before you upgrade your hospital. Point is, You are too vulnerable and when you do get your killing machine, its already too late to stop the massive army at your gate. \r\n\r\n[quote]i have an 80% win rate[/quote]\r\n\r\nunfortunately win ratios are misleading. Same with rankings. I can simply reset my account to a 0% win ratio and still win. The only real way to show your knowledge is through action logic and facts

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Daikenkini

12 posts

Nomad

Posted November 4, '11 2:57pm UTC

again, your asuming players are equal. and not only that, but ur aplying they are both near perfect.

I assume that from the start. With those conditions given, you can determine the current balance in the most precise way.

So, let us assume all of us here are equal. All of us are perfect. And we're doing a couple of 1v1s. Who wins?

Those win exploiting the bad balance will. And we want to squish that bonus out. It is our goal, to make the balance perfect, so that players are equal when they are both on the same skill level.

Though, win ratio, rank, games played etc. do not determine the respective players skill precisely. There are too many probability factors helping to rank here up. They are just indicators you may use for other comparisons that do not need equal exactness.

Again, let us assume all of us here are equal and perfect. We are bots that are doing 1v1s. We don't do any mistakes, and still there are strength differences. Thanks to the bad balance. We're aiming for a better colony. We start discussions assuming exactly that to speed things up.

Rule 1: RTS games do not know any probability factors or bad balance. All players of a specific skill level are equal, and perfect for that skill level.

Your build im assuming is armory armory hospital sanc post all the way to tier 3.

(lol)

Thats about 350 dollars in cash. Since your fascist teching i might as well exploit your weakness. Monarchy rush.

Dun dun dun ...

A bq costs 50 mp while a saint costs 50 influence. So roughly they cost about the same. However as shown in battle the saint kills bq with a distraction and through micro.

On the same skill level, your micro is both equal. However, thanks Draco's build, he still will win his battle due to the distraction, means his Saint lives. 1-0 for Draco in this discussion.

This result is so significant in fact that it is believed you can probably 3 vs 1 with bqs vs saints. However thats the more crude way of killing your queen strat. Theres also simply replacing the saints with a sphinx and have a stream of chronites crashing at your base.

Even if that move would suck and even with equal micro, your queen will be not able to destroy all draco's tanks on ground. Even then Draco could take the overhand. 2-0 for Draco.

Or you could also use the special forces rush and you would be dead before you upgrade your hospital. Point is, You are too vulnerable and when you do get your killing machine, its already too late to stop the massive army at your gate.

At your gate? The real doom here comes from ABOVE your gate, Draco.

My 2 cents -^__^-

Well guys, you all won't know me, but ... may I introduce myself?`:3

[quote]again, your asuming players are equal. and not only that, but ur aplying they are both near perfect.[/quote]\r\n\r\nI assume that from the start. With those conditions given, you can determine the current balance in the most precise way.\r\n\r\nSo, let us assume all of us here are equal. All of us are perfect. And we're doing a couple of 1v1s. Who wins?\r\n\r\nThose win exploiting the bad balance will. And we want to squish that bonus out. It is our goal, to make the balance perfect, so that players are equal when they are both on the same skill level.\r\n\r\nThough, win ratio, rank, games played etc. do not determine the respective players skill precisely. There are too many probability factors helping to rank here up. They are just indicators you may use for other comparisons that do not need equal exactness.\r\n\r\nAgain, let us assume all of us here are equal and perfect. We are bots that are doing 1v1s. We don't do any mistakes, and still there are strength differences. Thanks to the bad balance. We're aiming for a better colony. We start discussions assuming exactly that to speed things up. \r\n\r\n[b]Rule 1:[/b] RTS games do not know any probability factors or bad balance. All players of a specific skill level are equal, and perfect for that skill level.\r\n\r\n[quote]Your build im assuming is armory armory hospital sanc post all the way to tier 3. [/quote]\r\n\r\n(lol)\r\n\r\n[quote]Thats about 350 dollars in cash. Since your fascist teching i might as well exploit your weakness. Monarchy rush. [/quote]\r\n\r\n[i]Dun dun dun ...[/i]\r\n\r\n[quote]A bq costs 50 mp while a saint costs 50 influence. So roughly they cost about the same. However as shown in battle the saint kills bq with a distraction and through micro. [/quote]\r\n\r\nOn the same skill level, your micro is both equal. However, thanks Draco's build, he still will win his battle due to the distraction, means his Saint lives. 1-0 for Draco in this discussion.\r\n\r\n[quote]This result is so significant in fact that it is believed you can probably 3 vs 1 with bqs vs saints. However thats the more crude way of killing your queen strat. Theres also simply replacing the saints with a sphinx and have a stream of chronites crashing at your base.[/quote]\r\n\r\nEven if that move would suck and even with equal micro, your queen will be not able to destroy all draco's tanks on ground. Even then Draco could take the overhand. 2-0 for Draco.\r\n\r\n[quote]Or you could also use the special forces rush and you would be dead before you upgrade your hospital. Point is, You are too vulnerable and when you do get your killing machine, its already too late to stop the massive army at your gate.[/quote]\r\n\r\nAt your gate? The real doom here comes from ABOVE your gate, Draco. \r\n\r\nMy 2 cents -^__^-\r\n\r\nWell guys, you all won't know me, but ... may I introduce myself?`:3

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inflict

381 posts

Shepherd

Posted November 4, '11 4:47pm UTC

just as draco lerns to minimise his posts too less than an entire page, a new bloke comes along and decides its his job... what ever shall we do?

So, let us assume all of us here are equal. All of us are perfect. And we're doing a couple of 1v1s. Who wins?

Those win exploiting the bad balance will. And we want to squish that bonus out. It is our goal, to make the balance perfect, so that players are equal when they are both on the same skill level.

wrong. if we were all perfect are lines of thought would be as such.
i know there is a bit of imbalance in the game, i know the others will exploit it. and so shall i.

all the best players main govs and builds are ones that use the imbalances: there are very few exseptions other than yos: who porposely uses the weakest stratergy possible.

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Daikenkini

12 posts

Nomad

Posted November 4, '11 5:36pm UTC

wrong. if we were all perfect are lines of thought would be as such.
i know there is a bit of imbalance in the game, i know the others will exploit it. and so shall i.

Wrong. We can be perfect with any build, as long as we have the best micro and best macro possible.

Don't think too deep, it's not about thoughts here. When we are all playing perfectly with different builds against each other, we can determine the strength difference between two builds. This is practically extremely hard to do, but theoretically it's possible. You just have to include all units on battlefield and a few coordinates in the protocoll.

Imagine two bots fighting each other, with AIs set to "impossible" each. They will micro and macro perfectly (we assume they do not know what the other one is doing when they don't take a look, even if they are bots). Just that the one is doing that build, and the other doing some other build.

The major part of the AI stays the same, they just have other "checkpoints" where they build/deploy other stuff.

all the best players main govs and builds are ones that use the imbalances: there are very few exseptions other than yos: who porposely uses the weakest stratergy possible.

Soymaster is working very accurate. Let's ask him about the things he assumes from the start (IF he assumes anything like that from the start).

Sorry for that long post :-)

[quote]wrong. if we were all perfect are lines of thought would be as such.\r\ni know there is a bit of imbalance in the game, i know the others will exploit it. and so shall i.[/quote]\r\n\r\nWrong. We can be perfect with any build, as long as we have the best micro and best macro possible. \r\n\r\nDon't think too deep, it's not about thoughts here. When we are all playing perfectly with different builds against each other, we can determine the strength difference between two builds. This is practically extremely hard to do, but theoretically it's possible. You just have to include all units on battlefield and a few coordinates in the protocoll.\r\n\r\nImagine two bots fighting each other, with AIs set to "impossible" each. They will micro and macro perfectly (we assume they do not know what the other one is doing when they don't take a look, even if they are bots). Just that the one is doing that build, and the other doing  some other build. \r\n\r\nThe major part of the AI stays the same, they just have other "checkpoints" where they build/deploy other stuff.\r\n\r\n[quote]all the best players main govs and builds are ones that use the imbalances: there are very few exseptions other than yos: who porposely uses the weakest stratergy possible.[/quote]\r\n\r\nSoymaster is working very accurate. Let's ask him about the things he assumes from the start (IF he assumes anything like that from the start).\r\n\r\nSorry for that long post :-)

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