Forums → WEPR → Calling all Muslims

another reason why i created this thread is because i was wondering if there were other muslims on ag.

there isn't because we (AG) is pure occidental which means we are atheist or Christian. Not many immigrants >.< im just sayin...

Explain to me how a shrink could possibly work without at least using some premise of hope.

Quite easily, depending on what definition of "hope" you use. The following may be considered to be used in religion, followed by how how it would work.

the feeling that what is wanted can be had or that events will turn out for the best: to give up hope.

This would probably be the most difficult, but shrinks could either promote a "deal with it" mentality or "you have it better than most" mentality. Both would be successful in many cases.

a person or thing in which expectations are centered: The medicine was her last hope.

You could not center on a deity, so this would not apply.

to look forward to with desire and reasonable confidence.

You didn't have any reasonable confidence before, but I digress. The shrink could still encourage the mentalities mentioned before.

I think that is most of them...

now im just thinking that 314 is trying to urn us into atheists

Nope, and yep, I am just trying to promote logic and destroy all religion...

Lol, your username fits you 314d1....

So does yours.... and what do you mean by that?

Quite easily, depending on what definition of "hope" you use. The following may be considered to be used in religion, followed by how how it would work.

Well, let's take it back from the statement I was responding to:

If you want to get out of depression, see a shrink not a priest.

The maxim I use here is "where there is life there is hope". Where there is no hope, the shrink doesn't have a job because the person would a) not seek help or b) have already committed suicide. Same applies to the priest, of course. Thus:

but shrinks could either promote a "deal with it" mentality or "you have it better than most" mentality

Is merely the removal of the illusion of a lack of hope.

Furthermore there is a misleading premise here: shrinks do not necessarily work independently of religion nor do they have to contravene it.

Can you name one thing positive about religion that can't happen without religion?

At a personal request to join this thread, I will attempt to answer this question with my own personal experiences and with testimonies given just to my husband and me, with as many as I can think of:
#1 answers to prayers, ( my husband and I began praying the prayer of Jabez
1 Chronicles 4:10
Jabez cried out to the God of Israel, "Oh, that you would bless me and enlarge my territory! Let your hand be with me, and keep me from harm so that I will be free from pain." And God granted his request. (NIV)
and after 1 month: my husband told me to remove our names from future church offices and functions;
after 4 months: I typed up our resumes and before I typed the final draft of his, he received information of a job opening but we would have to reply soon. We stared at each other and I stayed up until it was perfect, my husband is a perfectionist...
after 2-3 weeks after mailing off the resume, he was called and interview #1 was set up.
after 5-6 weeks his 3rd interview was completed but now he still had to pass the test, with a time limit and had to be error free!
Timeline so far has been January, now it was July and we still didn't know if he would pass this test for another 6-8 weeks. This turned out to be a good time for me to start packing while he studied. The year was 2001. He passed the test and was told so on the day he took it, the waiting was over and all of the prayer, tension, packing, pacing was answered and paid in full!

I was training my replacement at my job on 9/11/01, she was deaf and I typed out what I was hearing over the radio to her by using her little translator that looks like a big calculator with the same size paper roll. I had to change that roll twice before I was finished.
Everyone in the office stopped and prayed and I prayed for all of the orphans since my heart went out to all the school children who had to evacuate just across the street from the twin towers.

We found our house, much the same way because trying "our way" wasn't working until we started praying. By mid December 02 we were moving in!


#2 miracles, (e.g. entire cancerous tumors disappear after the church prays and prior to chemo, or any other treatment)

#3 food will be spontaneously delivered to your home when you don't have any money to buy groceries and all you did was pray about, being too embarrassed to ask anyone for help. I use the word spontaneous because the person or people who bring food they have prepared didn't know who they were cooking for until they loaded it up in the car.

#4 rent, mortgages will be paid by the generosity of others and much like the food mentioned above, the people giving didn't know who was getting the money until they were driving.

I think I'll stop for now.

He passed the test and was told so on the day he took it, the waiting was over and all of the prayer, tension, packing, pacing was answered and paid in full!

Many theists cite situations like these as 'roof of answered prayers', however there is no conclusive evidence that the situation would not have turned out the same had no prayer taken place.

Just a quick thinking exercise here. Think back on everything you have ever sincerely prayed for. List everything you can think of from the time you began praying. Then list the prayers that have had the exact outcome which you prayed for.

#2 miracles, (e.g. entire cancerous tumors disappear after the church prays and prior to chemo, or any other treatment)

This is not only an extremely rare occurrence, but it also has happened to people who are not at all religious. Sometimes the body is capable of massing up such an offensive against the tumor that it is able to eliminate it on it's own. Again, there is no conclusive evidence that prayer had any direct effect, however there is emerging evidence that this can occur naturally in the body.

#3 food will be spontaneously delivered to your home when you don't have any money to buy groceries and all you did was pray about, being too embarrassed to ask anyone for help. I use the word spontaneous because the person or people who bring food they have prepared didn't know who they were cooking for until they loaded it up in the car.

Many 'good samaritans' do things like this at random, and again, we can say that prayer caused this, or luck, chance, or providence. Whichever you prefer to call it. These are not proof of prayer working, but generous and needed kindnesses attributed to prayer.

We see things like this all throughout society, and we can easily attribute them to the supernatural. In fact, that's often the first explanation people turn to, especially theists, when something fortuitous happens and they don't understand why. However there are any number of reasons that these things take place and often further investigation reveals a decidedly natural explanation.

Another thing we need to keep in mind regarding prayer is that it is a psychological phenomenon. By that I mean that a firm belief in something often creates the desired result. I'm sure you've all heard the saying "If you believe it you can achieve it". This is because the power of belief is such that if we firmly believe in an outcome our minds can subconsciously turn us toward actions that will create the desired effect.

#1 answers to prayers, ( my husband and I began praying the prayer of Jabez

Then save a poor amputee, something that could not possibly happen without divine intervention. Not something that could EASILY be the work of man.

If god could not even save my dog, why should I listen to him?

#2 miracles, (e.g. entire cancerous tumors disappear after the church prays and prior to chemo, or any other treatment)

Cancer some times goes away on its own. Like I said, heal an amputee if you want me to acknowledge it as god given.

#3 food will be spontaneously delivered to your home when you don't have any money to buy groceries and all you did was pray about, being too embarrassed to ask anyone for help. I use the word spontaneous because the person or people who bring food they have prepared didn't know who they were cooking for until they loaded it up in the car.

Great. That can easily be done by human. Now do something that won't happen by itself...