Many theists cite situations like these as 'roof of answered prayers', however there is no conclusive evidence that the situation would not have turned out the same had no prayer taken place.
You're correct, there is no "conclusive or measurable" proof that prayer alone can manifest an occurance that would have naturally occurred, otherwise.
I am offering a condensed version and this is the first time I've written this down.
Can a natural vs supernatural occurance bring to mind such vivid memories?
Keep reading, I'll attempt to answer this question as I cover some other points...
Just a quick thinking exercise here. Think back on everything you have ever sincerely prayed for. List everything you can think of from the time you began praying. Then list the prayers that have had the exact outcome which you prayed for.
I don't have to list them here, would take way too long and most are way too personal. I began praying as a small child, I don't recall the age but I had just gotten my first bed so I would guess 2yrs old.
If I may, I would like to mention the quality of prayer; not as a dodge but to illustrate that the above mentioned prayers were the most heart felt, sincere, unselfish prayers, except for the Prayer of Jabez or let's say represent the top of the list.
I rarely, if ever, receive God's blessing or answer to a prayer I don't personally believe in. In other words, I can't be sincere over praying for someone's financial situation when they go from church to church waiting for the plate to be passed around for their "love" offering(s).
The only exceptions are for people with no insurance, or are struggling musicians, missionaries.
This is not only an extremely rare occurrence, but it also has happened to people who are not at all religious. Sometimes the body is capable of massing up such an offensive against the tumor that it is able to eliminate it on it's own. Again, there is no conclusive evidence that prayer had any direct effect, however there is emerging evidence that this can occur naturally in the body.
Without sounding like a "know-it-all", I'm painfully aware of losing family members to cancer that you've prayed for their restored health, for years. I also know that the mind is an amazing tool in and of itself. I've read about and heard people tell me of their personal experiences that are so amazing that it just doesn't seem possible, naturally.
We see things like this all throughout society, and we can easily attribute them to the supernatural. In fact, that's often the first explanation people turn to, especially theists, when something fortuitous happens and they don't understand why. However there are any number of reasons that these things take place and often further investigation reveals a decidedly natural explanation.
The difference I was trying to point out was that unlike most charitable gifts where we sit down and write out a check to it and mail ot off, or go online, isn't what was going on with these "gifts". It was a totally anonymous situation where the people recieving and the people giving didn't know of the others situation or consideration. These folks were not in conversation with each other, just with God.
That's why I haven't mentioned all the times groups of us, like the choir, etc. gathering and praying for members on a "
rayer list".
I know exactly what you're saying and I think you know by now, after our few conversations, that I'm not the average Protestant. I'm no where near the average Southern Baptist. I have to bow my head in church sometimes when the Pastor praises God with the end of every sentence.
I believe that words have power. Just like the book of James tells us.
I believe the word of God should be felt when it's spoken, otherwise keep the mouth shut.
I believe the name(s) of God should be prespected when thought of and spoken out loud, otherwise keep the mouth shut.
There's more, but let's move on...
Another thing we need to keep in mind regarding prayer is that it is a psychological phenomenon. By that I mean that a firm belief in something often creates the desired result. I'm sure you've all heard the saying "If you believe it you can achieve it". This is because the power of belief is such that if we firmly believe in an outcome our minds can subconsciously turn us toward actions that will create the desired effect.
Yes, as I said above, the mind is an amazing tool and we don't even use all of our gray matter. The Bible, (loosely) says that where 2 or more are gathered under the name of Jesus Christ that he is faithful to answer all requsets and supplications. That's a powerful statement that I use to open most all of my prayers with others. I believe these words I speak and yes, that alone holds a lot of power towards a positive outcome.
There. I think I can be civil now...
That's the best news I've heard in a long time 314d1! I hope you're sincere because I've been avoiding answering your rants because they usually are emotionally charged.
Life's short and every one of us has our opinion and emotional baggage, and you know what they say about opinions, don't you? They're like a**holes, everyone has one! Naturally every one of us thinks our opinion's the only sane one.
Relax and enjoy these debates, we might just learn something from you!
However I feel that both Buddhism and Taoism (which are both atheistic religions, by the way) have some fantastic philosophies.
I have fond memories of studying a little of Taoism when my mom was diagnosed with terminal cancer. I found the practice of Tai Chi very relaxing and adding a little yoga really helped me with my anger management.
I'm still awaiting a modern theist miracle to come up.
Just be careful what you ask/wish for because it may come true!
Well I think we can also both agree that Arabs are very ennoying can't we ?
Now, I hope there was sarcasm to this condescending statement?
Let's please not lump etremists of any type into these threads so we can have a legitimate, friendly debate(s).
