As some of you may know, I am a Catholic who has considered, on numerous occasions, the possibility that my religion may be incorrect, and maybe there is no correct religion. In most cases, I will cease debate and turn into discussion mode while I seek some answers. In most cases, personal experience wins me over, and what may appear to be coincidence on the outside appears to me as God showing me he exists. I've looked at every single one of them, and while they seem like improbable and personally moving coincidences, how improbable and moving was the formation of our universe? I've never been a Christian who believed that only through a believer's eyes could the world be beautiful; but now I finally can see the beauty of the world through more atheistic eyes. Like the stereotypical Christian, I am very conservative and reflective, and I will probably continue to be that way no matter what I choose to believe. But I am very concerned with the content of my own Bible. I'm not stupid; I've always known there were mentions of slavery as an everyday thing and women as inferior, but I've always been able to rationalize that the Bible was not written by God. Men wrote it, inspired by God, and the events, not the in-between pre-industrial male attitude, were what I needed to listen to. But even now I wonder why the Old Testament is so foul and cruel, and why even parts of the New Testament are so sexist. Even if Jesus hadn't died for our sins, wouldn't God want to create the world that he hopes to see one day, not smite the world until his son was born?
In this thread, I seek for Christians to justify the Bible. I don't have quotes on hand, but those of you who have read the Bible should know which ones I speak of. I will pop in once in a while with a quote I have a question about. In this thread, I will debate as an Atheist. In any other thread, for the time being, I will debate as a Christian. The reason I made this thread is simple: when I debate with atheists, I get a one-sided view to take in. But if I debate with Christians, I can get an actual balance. I am not ashamed to admit that my faith falters. It won't change my character whether I am right or wrong about religion. But when this much doubt surrounds my mind, I am simply curious.
I am a child, so I am not making any official decisions until adulthood. I want to take in the possibilities for the next few years, officially, and debate with Christians to see if I can win. Anyone is welcome in this thread, but it is mainly for Christians to defend the Bible, not a Christianity vs Atheism thread. I know there are threads on the Bible, but I want to use specific Bible quotes, rather than generalize the entire thing.
Here's my first Bible quote. Deuteronomy 13: 6-12:
But that prophet or that dreamer shall be put to death, because, in order to lead you astray from the way which the Lord, your God, has directed you to take, he has preached aapostasy from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and ransomed you from that place of slavery. Thus ahll you purge the evil from your midst. If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or your intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nation, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of it, shall fear and never again do such evil as this is in your midst.
This is obviously not for modern content, since it takes place after freeing the slaves of Egpyt, but still, imagine this. How could such acts be justified in any content? Why should you be the first to kill someone close to you for preaching something different? Why can you not even consider? How is it evil if you happen to reconsider your religious faith?
Well, a little. I do call all Christians. Only difference is, I'm going to debate as an Atheist now. Does anybody have justification for that quote? Just for the fun of it, I'm keeping a tally every time I move to a new topic. I'll see if someone posts an answer acceptable to me. If not, I'll leave the Bible verse number up, in case anyone wants to read it without going back several pages.
Sure do! Somebody, PLEASE, at least address my first question. I am one of the few people debating with you who CAN be swayed by your words. I'M BEGGING YOU!!
I wouldn't think so. I don't believe God wrote the Bible, but I do believe he interacted with those who did. At a time when God interfered with life on a daily basis, why couldn't he tell them to be open-minded, and not to become killers? Furthermore, why does God interfere so much in the Bible but not in OUR everyday life? Quite a coincidence that he only interfered when everyone accepted things blindly, wouldn't you say?
Well, almost all Old Testament quotes relating to the service and worship of God are Kind of Pointless because the New Testament or "New Promise" Is one we should follow most
That's all fine, but why are they even in the Bible at all? Why would God save a people who would kill their brothers and children for questioning an ideal? Why didn't he tell them to take a chill pill and discuss peacefully? It seems a bit harsh, especially since forgiveness ends up being worked into his almighty plan in the end.
Btw, I'm just debating as an atheist. I'm still Christian; I just think this will give me a better perspective of my own side, since I'll hear arguments directed at me.
Well, The Old Testament to me is just a pre-cursor or history book that leads up to the story of Jesus, to give a background on the drama that is Christianity back then.
I see. I like to take more definite standpoints, so it's technically unresolved. Anybody want to talk about it literally?
Obviously it's my first tally, so don't automatically judge one side as superior. Anyone who wants to address my questions, on page 1, feel free to. I give Kirby credit for introducing his views on the OT, and they are viable. However, it is still officially unresolved.
Next quote: Exodus 21: 20-21:
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, he survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.
Let's ignore the fact that slavery is immoral for one moment. The law implies that intent is completely irrelevant; that his death is a sin, but if you do an act which could but doesn't kill him, it's okay. Why are there so many laws in the Old Testament that ignore morality and common sense? Why would God's "chosen people" be so brutaly below a non-believer in modern times?
Let's ignore the fact that slavery is immoral for one moment. The law implies that intent is completely irrelevant; that his death is a sin, but if you do an act which could but doesn't kill him, it's okay. Why are there so many laws in the Old Testament that ignore morality and common sense? Why would God's "chosen people" be so brutaly below a non-believer in modern times?
Back in those days it was survival of the fittest. If you have common sence and moralaty you were not of the fittest.
Back in those days it was survival of the fittest. If you have common sence and moralaty you were not of the fittest.
As a Christian, I'd say God was the one thing that the Israelites had that nobody else did, and this made them a moral people. As an unbiased source, I see that they are not a moral people. Why didn't God steer them towards a better path? Why didn't he start and inspire the practice to end slavery then, and save us the trouble of doing it later? Why make slaves suffer all that much longer throughout history?
So far I'm only seeing forms the argument: Ignore the Old Testament. I don't think it's that simple. Jesus takes quotes from the Old Testament in the New Testament. Parts of the Old Testament are fulfilled in the New Testament. How can we justify just blocking out what we don't want to hear?
Question 1: The death of one person was peferable to the spread of idols and false gods amongst an entire population. It also served as a warning to others. Would you rather one person dead and lost for eternity or ten people alive and lost for eternity?
Question 2: If you own a person you have complete control over them. If you kill them its a pretty bad thing. However they are property and are yours to do with what you will. If you treat them poorly that is your choice because they belong to you. The slaves served their master, but it isn't like they didn't get anything out of it. They were provided food, water, shelter, and whatever else was needed.
As an unbiased source, I see that they are not a moral people. Why didn't God steer them towards a better path? Why didn't he start and inspire the practice to end slavery then, and save us the trouble of doing it later? Why make slaves suffer all that much longer throughout history?
Because the only way to moralaty was the hard way, and not laws which aren't explained. So in a sence he did steer them.
