This is a subject that has cropped up in a couple threads already so I figure why not give it it's own thread.
So the questions Was the Biblical Jesus a real person? If not was there at least a historical Jesus used as a basis for the stories? Could it have been a complete fabrication?
Please provide evidence for or against your argument. If you use the Bible provide external sources to also back up your claim.
I'm sure plenty of you guys have heard this line of argumentation, but I want to bring it up here. Mostly because, if Jesus was a real person (which I doubt) and if he was the son of God (which I am vehemently opposed to), then the problem I'm discussing has a little more force.
So, "God" = Father & Son & Holy Spirit the entity we call "God" is identical to all three of these - or just 2 if you don't accept the holy spirit as an entity. God must be identical to each of these in order for Christianity to remain monotheistic
But, Father =/= Son =/= Holy Spirit None of these entities which are identical with God are identical with one another. This is a basic contradiction of identity. If a=b and a=c then b=c
There are several attempted refutations of this argument, but here's the kicker: if Jesus was actually incarnate, then that is a clear and distinct property from God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. The theist might be able to wriggle free from the logical inconsistency if Jesus was never real, but once he became flesh, the logical inconsistencies abound.
@yielee : None of these. I think that historians of today would shout from the rooftops had a document fitting their criteria been found.
If there was a document found, you all would just say it was fake anyway.
Actually I would be happy that such a compassionate man had lived and fought the church and the state. I would also think he wouldnt want all the faiths in the world today to be in the terrible state they are in. But he is used as a basis of fact, and I must refute that due to personal belief he didnt exist. I think he was created to be a hero to those in need but was and still is used as a weapon.
The theist might be able to wriggle free from the logical inconsistency if Jesus was never real, but once he became flesh, the logical inconsistencies abound.
I personally think, as jesus was not real, that he is one of the spritual symbols of the universe and of the stars that birthed us. Just some people wanna take it too far, add sentience into the mix, and then put all justification for violence and morallity onto the fabric of time and space (which they attributed a human sentience to)... thats just as crazy, but at least makes sense to me.
I personally think, as jesus was not real, that he is one of the spritual symbols of the universe and of the stars that birthed us. Just some people wanna take it too far, add sentience into the mix, and then put all justification for violence and morallity onto the fabric of time and space (which they attributed a human sentience to)... thats just as crazy, but at least makes sense to me.
i dont think Jesus was real as the son of god, and he was just a normal person, and the stories about him are just exaggerations....(no offence ment to people whobelive in him)
Christianity has nothing to do with constellations, etc... The New Testament was nearly written as it happened.
I wasnt talking about constellations! It was a philosophical statement saying we are all stardust, which we are! And as for the new testement, what proof dyou have that it was written as it happened, even nearly?
AM I guess I'm not sure then what your looking for. I thought you wanted a historical non-biblical document that was written about Jesus at the time Jesus was alive, so it was not a word-of-mouth account.
The things I listed just followed from your request, so if I misunderstood, could you just correct it?
I thought you wanted a historical non-biblical document that was written about Jesus at the time Jesus was alive, so it was not a word-of-mouth account.
Thats correct, but thats not what you stated before. Non biblical doesnt mean non religious, it means something, anything, not out of the bible. The bible is in question here, so cannot be used as a source for anything. Im sure you could find things from the bible that are true, but they have been shown to be historicly true OUTWITH the bible. Theres NOTHING on jesus exept in the religions that believe he was real.
Even a word of mouth account like, "im a historian/non christian/musician/writer/average joe etc... and the other day my christian buddy told me about this guy jesus, she went to see him and said he healed people/talked to a crowd/pulled a rabbit from a hat... "
Not first hand is it? But it would be something that didnt involve a huge gap of time after his death.
Can you explain why some people follow scientology, when its not even in question that it was made up by Ron Hubbard. I mean... youd have to be crazy to follow a story... right?
Thats correct, but thats not what you stated before. Non biblical doesnt mean non religious,
AM- you corrected that mistake before already, non-biblical vs. non-religious, and I said OK. This is on the other page before I made the list, so. I don't know. Is there something else, cause it looks like the list still follows what your wanting.
Christianity has nothing to do with constellations, etc... The New Testament was nearly written as it happened
techincally it was written 60-100 years after his death. just correcting you there, im catholic, most of the gospel writers weren't even alive during jesus' life
Stereotypical image of God: Long white robes, bearded, giant, lives in the sky, and throws lightning bolts to smite people. Sounds a lot like the Greek God Zeus.....
key word, stereotypical. i don't know where you have ever seen a image of God throwing lighnting bolts. i don't know were you got that. sounds like you are describing zeus, not God. there is not astereotype with the lightning bolts. the white robes and beard and sky thing i kinda agree with. are you trying to say that the bible is greek mythology?
key word, stereotypical. i don't know where you have ever seen a image of God throwing lighnting bolts.
Psalm 144:6 Cast forth lightning, and scatter them: shoot out thine arrows, and destroy them. (This is the KJV however there are other version that do use the word thrown in place of cast forth)
Job 37:3 He directeth it under the whole heaven, and his lightning unto the ends of the earth.
2 Samuel 22:15 And he sent out arrows, and scattered them; lightning, and discomfited them.
Just a few examples of God using or indicating he uses lightning in the Bible. But anyway back to the topic at hand...
I would think that a reference to lightning would be more like a sign of power than a copy of zeus.
Remember when Paul when on a missionary to Greece? It would have been easier to convert the natives if he used a common figure that they all knew and respected, and claimed that to be God.
