Before you comment on this, keep in mind that: 1. Prepare to read a loooong wall of text. No summaries are availible, and I would consider this post worth reading. 2. Please put some thought into your posts. No one-line responses. 3. In this topic I will not be using facts, but instead philosophy. I'm giving science and statistics a break, for now.
Lately, Ive been seeing a lot of arguments that go like this: Christian: God exists Atheist: Oh yeah? Creationism is the stupidist idea I've heard of. Christian: I believe god made the Big Bang. Atheist: The Big Bang had no cause. YouTube says so. Christian: But I know a story where someone was protected by God! Search it on google! *cue flamewar*
Those kinds of topics usually go on and on, but to no avail. Both sides never give up, and keep arguing. Has anyone actually switched religions after reading those topics? Since I've decided it's useless debating over Gods existence, in this topic I will try to shed light on Christianity from an atheists point of view.
First off, I would like to point out some misconceptions about Christians. We do not all believe in creationism. I agree that creationism is flawed. But you athists take the Bible too literally. The first part of Genesis is basically trying to say that God created everything. Also, not all Christians believe you have to be Christian to go to heaven. I do not, I believe it all depends on having good morals. However, it is harder for atheists to go to heaven because they have no one to ask for forgiveness. Along with that, keep in mind that not every Christian is like GodsHolyKnight. He was more like your typical 15th century Christian, taking every passage in the bible literally.
But is Christianity really that bad? Yes, it has started many a war, but every religion occaisionally goes awry. And while it is easy to find the death toll of a war, it is hard to find how many lives something has saved. Religions have spurred the inspiration behind civilizations, which not only kept people together, but lead to progress and inventions. After all, the Rennesaince (sorry for the bad spelling) was caused in part by a boost in Christian faith. In comparison, wars have only been a small setback. And even if Christianity has had a rough history, keep in mind that 99% of Christians did not support Adolf Hitler or control troops in the Crusades or chop the heads of non-believers, keep in mind that some of the least talked about Christians had the best morals and had a good heart. And those who tried to convert may have killed, but they converted people from more barbaric and less moral-based beliefs. The philosophy and lessons of Jesus are good, and that's what really matters. Admit it, some of your morals are derived from the Bible.
And why do I believe in God, with science stacked up against me? Truth be told, I admit science is on your side. And the universe is made up of science, so in theory God doesn't exist, right? Wrong. God created the universe, thus He is outside of it. So, universal laws do not apply to Him (He is, after all, GOD). And while there is no proof of God, I am somehow still sure He exists. I respect the fact that you are atheist (if you are), but I think you focus too much on science.
Finally, I have seen that most atheists think religious people are gullible. While most people do not think their religion over enough, I have of late. After reading all of the arguments in this forum, I have dug deeper for reasons to believe, and come out an even stronger Catholic. Ironically, some of my worst enimies on this site have helped me the most. However, I have gotten more tense in my arguments, which is why I will be taking a break from this forum.
In conclusion, most of you are too focused on science, and need to learn how Christianity is good, whether you are Christian or not.
Discuss your opinon on my post and Christianity in general.Â
God created the universe, thus He is outside of it. So, universal laws do not apply to Him (He is, after all, GOD). And while there is no proof of God, I am somehow still sure He exists.
I have no problem with your beliefs, it just annoys me so much. I tried. I tried for 4 1/2 years to legitimately believe and accept that fact that you just wrote. I just couldn't do it. I could not bring myself to believe that God is outside of this universe, and I could not bring myself to believe in him when there is no proof of him... ...I'm sorry, I tried, I just couldn't do it.
The philosophy and lessons of Jesus are good, and that's what really matters. Admit it, some of your morals are derived from the Bible.
I do believe in this, the lessons from both the Old Testament and the Gospels do have good meanings and lessons, and the stories are not always about how "Jesus is the man" The analogies it creates really does make people nicer.
I respect the fact that you are atheist (if you are), but I think you focus too much on science.
In conclusion, most of you are too focused on science
Science has proof of their reasoning. SOLID proof.
Wrong. God created the universe, thus He is outside of it. So, universal laws do not apply to Him (He is, after all, GOD). And while there is no proof of God, I am somehow still sure He exists
The universe contains everything that physically exists. It is impossible to be outside it. Unless god was not a physical being.
Also, not all Christians believe you have to be Christian to go to heaven. I do not, I believe it all depends on having good morals.
And not all "Christians" will make it to heaven for regardless of what the call themselves they do not know the truth. I think "No one goes to the Father but by me." was fairly specific.
Those kinds of topics usually go on and on, but to no avail. Both sides never give up, and keep arguing. Has anyone actually switched religions after reading those topics? Since I've decided it's useless debating over Gods existence, in this topic I will try to shed light on Christianity from an atheists point of view.
Nowhere in your post have you really touched on the true reason most learned atheists reject the idea of God. It's not the theories of evolution or creationism or what religion has caused to occur, but how and/or why people seem to justify religion.
I mean, there's no reason why we can't theorise about the concept of God. It's not unlikely that a thing couldn't exist outside the laws of the universe, observe it and interact with it. However the only measurement that God exists is a person's individual 'feelings', which is NOT objectively compelling evidence.
Of the many Gods in the many heads of theists everywhere, how without evidence can we decide which is the right one? What way do we determine real objective morals passed down by from Him? Honestly, if you really want to accept the possibility of God, how do we determine what he actually is? Even if you say ''let's use the Bible'', I ask you what makes the pieces we have useful for determining the hair colour of God? What evidence do we have that he is loving or even interested in us? Anyone can make that claim, but even if we accept the first claim ''couldn't God be real'', how do we determine what ''real'' means? Even if you yourself have a twisted, free flowing idea of God, you use an objective concept like Jesus. Why do you justify using some beliefs from the Bible, but not others? How can a personally filtered idea of God be thrust into our world as an objective concept that everyone must respect and honour, ye there's no objective picture of that God?
Science has proof of their reasoning. SOLID proof.
Uhm, isn't it more like theories that had yet to be disproved?
Besides that, this is pretty much why I just shrug and smile when people tries to argue against faith (and when some of the Christians start yelling up about the Bible). Because, when it comes down to truth, there never seem to be just one. How is it... That there are truths, but not one truth.
I have decided to discuss your point about how Christianity teaches morals.
As far as I know, atheists and agnostics do not commit more crimes than religious people, and likewise. But I would be far more concerned, about the basic morality of someone who needs to be threatened(forgive my bluntness) with burning in an abyss for all eternity to be good to other people, as opposed to someone who simply does good things out of their own humanity.
Uhm, isn't it more like theories that had yet to be disproved?
SOME are proven, things such as scientific laws. But you are correct, most hve just not been disproved. However, religion has been proven wrong, time and time again. I am not trying to be hard-headed. The thing about science vs religion is that science is willing to change.
Religion is one of those issues that breeds debate, but is still interesting. It stands to answer some questions but also creates others and the way it is writen makes it hard to believe by many. Science is commonly used to discredit it, saying that everything can be logically explained, all except the why. Science explains to us how things work, how they do what they do, but not why. One could argue that science explains how things work, like when a switch is flipped a light comes on, but not the how, and that is where religion comes in, the light came on becouse someone flipped the switch. Religion gives us the answer to the why, but also creates more problems. If God created the universe, why did he, for what reason would he create it and that's a question we can never hope to answer, at least not in our lifetimes. But, if there isn't a God, how did our universe come into existance? The common answer is the Big Bang Theory, but what caused that. What was before the Big Bang, and if the Big Bang did occur, what was here before then? If science is correct and religion is false and the universe was created by some great explosion, what came before that? Our idea of time must be wrong somehow as something had to start that straight line, but that's a subject that will keep you up all night and will never get answered. Religion answers the what caused the Big Bang (God), but gives us more questions, who is God, who/what created God, is he/she the only one, etc. Another thing brought up about religion is how many wars and deaths it's caused, and this is true. But, is it really the religion that causes the wars, or the people. For example, Jesus Christ, the Christian prophet preached a message of love your neighbor and turn the other cheek, how this is a violent message at all I fail to understand. Wars "caused" by religion are in fact caused by the perversion of religion, not the religion itself. For example, the Crusades. We all know about them, hundreds of years of holy war, most notably in the middle east, but what caused them? (Please excuse spelling) When muslim saracen forces invaded the Byzantene Empire, the king sent a request to the Pope for help to repell the invadors. The Pope back in Europe at this time had a bad situation on his hands, peoples used to killing each other for thousands of years where now united under the church and bored, causing them to start to kill each other again. This lead to the "Peace of God" and Truce of God", basically (I get the two mixed up from time to time so don't get caught up on which one is which) the first rules of war, you can't kill women and children, no fighting on church lands and no killing priests. With this call to aid, the Pope had an idea and created the other, I believe the Peace of God, saying that if one fought and (this is debated, even back then) died in Jeursalem they would have their sins forgiven, and back then it was a big deal, people had a lot of sins. A little while later the Byzantene king got his aid, but not a small elite force like he had wanted but instead a massive army, one so massive he made it camp outside the city gates for fear of them trying to overthrow him. They beat the saracins out and invaded the holy land, taking Jerusalem with great, unjust force, but with such a massive unorganized army it was bound to happen. Time went on and the future Popes discovered soemthing, they could distract the people with holy war, and thus the Crusades where born from one just action (defending the Byzantenes). Religion is also blammed for many evils, for example, the inquisition. I do not argue that it was not evil, but it wasn't at first, like so many other things, it started out as a good idea, but remember, "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions". Apparently, a young boy, maybe teenager was sacrificed on a Spanish beach by a group of Satanists I believe. This was reported to the authorities and public outcry and perhaps another need for a distraction of the people and an excuse to purge the New World of it's native peoples lead to another great evil. In conclusion, religion answers a few questions and provides others. Most if not all religions preach a good message, most commonly known to us is Jesus Christ's basically be nice to everyone and let things go, a message our world would be a lot better off it people could live by, but it does go against human nature especially in large societies. Religion has not caused problems, perversion of religion has and still does.
Something OUTSIDE and INFINETE outside of the universe had to cause the Big Bang. Something can't just cause itself.
You see, that's where I get confused. Apparently, the Universe couldn't have founded itself, since it, "can't just cause itself" yet God wasn't created. And he is apparently outside of the universe. I tried and I tried and I tried and tried again, but I could not see logic in this.
Also, you are forgetting the "bubble" theory of the universe. That a universe can split up, two universes can combine, or a universe just "ops" and explodes in on itself. If this theory were true, then the possibility of the universe having a non-religious outside origin could be true. The problem with this theory is that the transmitted energy would start to deteriorate over time, thus resulting in dark matter, or matter without energy. Links Wikipedia Physics Suite
Fight the man, thats what i always say!