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Cenere
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Cenere
13,657 posts
Jester

No wonder I keep to that complaint forum.

WTF UTAH?!

A bill passed by the Utah House and Senate this week and waiting for the governor's signature, will make it a crime for a woman to have a miscarriage, and make induced abortion a crime in some instances.


Am I the only one that see the flaw in this, as in "many pregnancies end up in unintended miscarriage" and "Wow, thanks for putting the lady in prison for being hit by a car!"?
As someone else said:
Yeah, cause it's not like miscarriage is traumatic enough for a woman! Let's ARREST her to add to the trauma!

Wtf.
  • 45 Replies
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

it clearly states that "a woman's 'intentional, knowing, or reckless act' leading to a pregnancy's illegal termination" would be made illegal. Miscarriage in itself is not made illegal; intentionally induced miscarriage is,


The problem is determining the difference. If some girls boyfriend punches her in the stomach and she has a miscarriage have they both committed a crime or just the boyfriend?
Kyouzou
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Kyouzou
5,061 posts
Jester

When I first saw this, I thought it was a troll, then I saw the link and realized that it was the real deal, and I have to say if the Gov. signs this bill, then we officially have someone stupider than Blagojevich, which I must admit I didn't think was possible. These people know that miscarriage is an accidental death right?

Parsat
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Parsat
2,180 posts
Blacksmith

That's the main problem with the law that I see with the moment, not ZOMG ALL MISCARRIAGE IZ ILLEGAL. I agree with the spirit of the law, if not the practical problem of proving it.

Kyouzou
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Kyouzou
5,061 posts
Jester

The spirit as in making abortion illegal?

I looked this word up, most all of the def. include something about unexpected or sudden termination which means that it was intended how can this be a criminal act?!

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

That's the main problem with the law that I see with the moment, not ZOMG ALL MISCARRIAGE IZ ILLEGAL. I agree with the spirit of the law, if not the practical problem of proving it.


Another problem I see with this is that it can put undue stress on someone already suffering. losing a child is a very stressful and traumatic event. The to compound that with being charged with a crime for losing it would just add more stress, even if they were found innocent.

Is it really worth it just to catch the few who are doing it intentionally? If the problem is so great that many women feel they need to have themselves beat up in order to get out of having a child, then perhaps there are other things that need to be changed first.
Kyouzou
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Kyouzou
5,061 posts
Jester

women feel they need to have themselves beat up in order to get out of having a child


which in many cases doesn't kill the baby but instead cause the baby to be born with some kind of deformity.
Freakenstein
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Freakenstein
9,504 posts
Jester

That's the main problem with the law that I see with the moment, not ZOMG ALL MISCARRIAGE IZ ILLEGAL. I agree with the spirit of the law, if not the practical problem of proving it.


Then you need to be reminded of what miscarriage is defined. It is an unintentional, accidental, and sometimes natural termination of an embryo or a fetus. Accidental would hint that there would be no physical signs, or intentional, which would then be considered an abortion instead.

reckless act


Despite being reckless, the individual will not know that this would happen. Driving under the influence is a reckless act, but people inside will not completely know that they will die if they do so.

intentionally induced miscarriage is


You mean abortion?
Stacey12345
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Stacey12345
143 posts
Nomad

You know, This kind of stuff... It's really what makes this country great. I mean, how many 1st world countries do you know of will punish its citizens for something that can't be controlled? It really makes me want to stand on top of the tallest building and sing, "God Bless America." I think I might cry.

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

"God Bless America." I think I might cry.


If tomorrow all things were gone I would still work my life away, And I had to start again with just my children and my wife, I'd thank my lucky stars for even if it's minimum wage, 'Cause the flag still stand for freedom? Have they taken that away from me?

I'm proud to be an American where at least I know I'm watched.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/MageGrayWolf/security-camera-pole-breakdown.jpg
And I won't forget the men who slowly took my rights away from me, And I'll gladly stand up next to you and defend her still today, 'Cause I don't know but God Bless the U.S.A.

From the lakes of Minnesota to the hills of Tennessee, Across the plains of Texas from sea to shining sea.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/MageGrayWolf/pollutedwater.jpg
From Detroit down to Houston and New York to L.A., There's doubt in every American heart and it's time to stand and say:

I'm proud to be an American where at least I know I'm watched.
And I won't forget the men who slowly took my rights away from me, And I'll gladly stand up next to you and defend her still today, 'Cause I don't know but God Bless the U.S.A.

(sorry for this being a bit off topic, don't let this derail things to much everybody)
Parsat
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Parsat
2,180 posts
Blacksmith

Accidental would hint that there would be no physical signs, or intentional, which would then be considered an abortion instead.


An accident does not imply the lack of physical or psychological trauma. The fallacy lies in equivocating an "accident" with induced miscarriage, when there is actually a contradiction.

Furthermore, the use of a driving under the influence analogy is a flawed one, because it is a clearly dangerous activity that is certainly reckless and has a great chance to result in physical and psychological trauma. Following the logic and analogy that you set, perhaps we should repeal penalties from driving under the influence on account of people not knowing the possible consequence?

You mean abortion?


If the two are equivalent by definition, then yes. If not, then both. You are right in pointing out that there is little difference between the two, but abortion in its present-day usage implies an induced surgical or medical abortion. This is why in the case of the woman getting punched it was labeled an intentionally induced miscarriage, because it does not follow the modern connotation.
Freakenstein
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Freakenstein
9,504 posts
Jester

Furthermore, the use of a driving under the influence analogy is a flawed one, because it is a clearly dangerous activity that is certainly reckless and has a great chance to result in physical and psychological trauma. Following the logic and analogy that you set, perhaps we should repeal penalties from driving under the influence on account of people not knowing the possible consequence?


Because other reckless behavior for pregnant women may cause them to have a miscarriage. But again. They don't know that it will happen. They are not planning to have a miscarriage, or in this case, an abortion, when they are performing reckless activity. If the mother willingly wants to do reckless activity just to abort the child, then that is different.

Also, laws give penalties to PREVENT these sorts of things from happening, not because they know it will happen. It's a just-in-case measure, if you will.

This is why in the case of the woman getting punched it was labeled an intentionally induced miscarriage, because it does not follow the modern connotation.


I realize that it's the marked label but still: Did the woman want to be punched? If yes, then it was an intentional miscarriage, or abortion. If the woman did not want to be punched and someone else did, then that has to be labeled murder, under the laws that make it illegal to abort a child. Unintentional and natural termination of the fetus is of course an unintentional miscarriage.
NoNameC68
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NoNameC68
5,043 posts
Shepherd

Did the woman want to be punched?


Yes, the woman payed a man to punch her. It's pretty disgusting. Obviously we want to see this woman be punished.

Howevever, this law would be too much. Most miscarriages are accidental. If this law goes into effect, every single woman who has a miscarriage will be a suspect! That's right, every woman who has a miscarriage will be a suspect and they will be investigated.

Personally, we need more privacy than that. Sure, if a woman is caught trying to abort a baby illegally, she should be punished. We can't have the majority suffer because a few people will act reckless.

You mean abortion?


I'm not exactly sure what the difference is, but there is one. The difference lies in what causes the baby's death.
njarvis10
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njarvis10
110 posts
Nomad

WTF, there is something wrong with that...

thelistman
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thelistman
1,416 posts
Shepherd

Did anyone actually read the story?

It will make forced miscarriages illegal. So if I walk up to a pregnant woman and repeatedly kick her stomach causing a miscarriage, then I can be charged with murder.

7432200
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7432200
134 posts
Nomad

Screw Utah, i always knew it was a cr** state. (no offense to any one in utah) but seriously come on what idiot thought that up it should be illegal to be that stupid.

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