ForumsWEPR[necro] The overall effect of religion on the world

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Calm
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Calm
911 posts
Herald

I've seen a lot of threads talking about religion in this section of the forums, and it seems that some people think it has a bad effect on the world and we should try to get rid of religion, whereas others believe religion hhas an overall good effect on the world.

In this thread, my aim is to discuss these two views, because I want to know what people think, and why they think what they think

Now I've created a very short survey here and would love it if you could take a couple of minutes answering it. Just answer as many questions as you want.

In a few days, I'll publish the results and we can discuss them. I hope I'll get plenty of participants

  • 126 Replies
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,476 posts
Farmer

Religion is 2000 years old.


Christianity is roughly 2000 years old. Religion is much older. In fact some evidence suggests we aren't the first hominid species to have religious beliefs.

Most theists are willing to bend their faith against their book by pretending it's meaning is of something else, as long as the theist has feelings for such controversial topic.


The evidence even from those here seem to suggest most aren't willing to bend.
samy
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samy
4,876 posts
Nomad

Well I can see that I'm not needed here. NoName's done quite a good job of being correct on every point he's presented.

Clearly in the modern world religion's effects are largely positive. Do the negatives exist? Of course but name me any popular philosophy/religion/theology that doesn't have negative effects.

MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
4,012 posts
Shepherd

Clearly in the modern world religion's effects are largely positive.


Are you serious? How do you figure that? Is that what you hear at church? Or have you actually looked around you lately? There are religious wars going on left and right, terrorism is at it's peak, there are still multitude injustices even here in the US by the ultra right wing religious zealots based solely on their religious convictions and the idea that it is their mission to enforce their religious "morals" on the rest of society.
314d1
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314d1
3,840 posts
Nomad

As for the gangs, I'm calling it BS. Just because they are theists doesn't mean they are fueled by religion.


But they have one of the &quotositive things" you mentioned: A feeling that they belong and a social gathering. It does not make street gangs a good thing.

Let's say you are a regular Christian. You go to church and before mass you go to a Sunday School and talk about God. You talk about morals and how to become a better person. You go to mass where you and your family and friends are all celebrating together. Afterward, you talk to everyone and hang out. You are all happy and feel good about yourselves and you strengthen each other. When one of you feels down another person will walk up to you and tell you that God will help be there for you. Then that person will proceed to pray for you. Do you know what it feels like when someone prays for you when you're a theist? You feel loved. You feel accepted.


Lets say you are a devoted member of a street gang. You go to all the gang wars and robberies. Afterwords, you hang out with your "boyz" and have a great time. When you are down, you are comforted by the warm feelings you get when they say "Im gunna pop a cap in that mother...." and pass you some form of drug. You feel accepted. Loved.


The rest of your argument seems to be mainly based on "Who cares about the facts?". It may not apply to the average man that the earth revolves around the sun, not the other way around, it applies to scientist. It may not effect you now, but it may effect you later in life or your children grand children ect. Lets say the same example I gave, the earth and the sun. It would be useful in interplanetary travel for the planets to be aligned, and it would be much harder for an average businessman to calculate if everyone believed the sun revolved around the earth.
samy
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samy
4,876 posts
Nomad

Are you serious? How do you figure that? Is that what you hear at church? Or have you actually looked around you lately? There are religious wars going on left and right, terrorism is at it's peak, there are still multitude injustices even here in the US by the ultra right wing religious zealots based solely on their religious convictions and the idea that it is their mission to enforce their religious "morals" on the rest of society.


Learn to pay attention to the world you live and not just learn your world from the news.

The war are over oil. Using religion to back up an opinion is no different than using any other philosophy.

Remember the vast majority of charities are religious or were founded as religious. Think Red Cross.
314d1
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314d1
3,840 posts
Nomad

Learn to pay attention to the world you live and not just learn your world from the news.


So pay attention to the world, just don't pay attention to what is going on in the world...

The war are over oil. Using religion to back up an opinion is no different than using any other philosophy.


Oil and religion. And of course don't forget all the extremist with the bombs strapped to there back.

Remember the vast majority of charities are religious or were founded as religious. Think Red Cross.


THEY ARE NOT NEEDED TO MAKE CHARITIES! Think Non belief Relief.
samy
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samy
4,876 posts
Nomad

Lets say you are a devoted member of a street gang. You go to all the gang wars and robberies. Afterwords, you hang out with your "boyz" and have a great time. When you are down, you are comforted by the warm feelings you get when they say "Im gunna pop a cap in that mother...." and pass you some form of drug. You feel accepted. Loved.


Terrible comparison. When was the last time your local church murdered someone, raped someone, mugged someone. Don't compare religion to something it isn't.

The rest of your argument seems to be mainly based on "Who cares about the facts?".


Science is a pursuit based off basic human curiosity. Religion is based off the basic human need to be loved. Clearly one is much more important than the other.

So pay attention to the world, just don't pay attention to what is going on in the world...


Notice the word just.

Oil and religion. And of course don't forget all the extremist with the bombs strapped to there back.


It's over oil, if there wasn't oil in the area there wouldn't be a war.

Think Non belief Relief.


Which is?

THEY ARE NOT NEEDED TO MAKE CHARITIES!


Because the secular world is so good at it.
314d1
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314d1
3,840 posts
Nomad

Terrible comparison. When was the last time your local church murdered someone, ***** someone, mugged someone. Don't compare religion to something it isn't.


I am stating that street gangs can give the same feelings, yet you would not call them positive. My local church may not have murdered anyone, but no one that they dislike lives in the aria. Catholic priests are famous for rape. Many churches encourage attacking gays and such.

Science is a pursuit based off basic human curiosity. Religion is based off the basic human need to be loved. Clearly one is much more important than the other.


Yes... the curiosity that allows you to speak on this computer is far more important...

It's over oil, if there wasn't oil in the area there wouldn't be a war.


It has MANY religious ties. No real way to prove this, unless you have GB on speed dial...

Which is?


An atheist charity, here is a link to its website.

Because the secular world is so good at it.


....I thought I just gave an example....
samy
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samy
4,876 posts
Nomad

I am stating that street gangs can give the same feelings, yet you would not call them positive. My local church may not have murdered anyone, but no one that they dislike lives in the aria. Catholic priests are famous for ****.


Because of other actions, quite looks at small details and see the whole picture.

Yes... the curiosity that allows you to speak on this computer is far more important...


I would give up computers for ever if everyone in the world could feel loved. I would give up everything science has given us.

It has MANY religious ties. No real way to prove this, unless you have GB on speed dial...


It has one. It was used as a scapegoat.

....I thought I just gave an example....


That most people have never heard of. The Red Cross is much, much more effective. Giving these people hope, false or not, is just as important as aid.

Many churches encourage attacking gays and such.


Many: Those being on the news.

???
314d1
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314d1
3,840 posts
Nomad

I would give up computers for ever if everyone in the world could feel loved. I would give up everything science has given us.


So you would give millions, if not billions, of lives so you could have a warm fuzzy feeling?

That most people have never heard of. The Red Cross is much, much more effective. Giving these people hope, false or not, is just as important as aid.


Aid is far more important. Give them enough aid and they will have there own hope. Here is a good size list of other atheistic charities.

It has one. It was used as a scapegoat.


Witch is enough for me.

Many: Those being on the news.


....Many of them make there way to the news, if the pope or something didn't cover it up well enough, but so do all other crimes. What is your point?
samy
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samy
4,876 posts
Nomad

So you would give millions, if not billions, of lives so you could have a warm fuzzy feeling?


Many health problems can be traced back to various scientific developments. But yes I would, you underestimate love and the power it has over people.

Aid is far more important. Give them enough aid and they will have there own hope. Here is a good size list of other atheistic charities.


I enjoy how the all clearly are related to atheism, seems more of an attack than an actual caring charity but that's just my opinion.

Witch is enough for me.


Witch? Burn her!

What is your point?


My point is the amount of churches that try to get their congregation to murder doctors who give abortions or homosexuals are nearly non-existent.
314d1
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314d1
3,840 posts
Nomad

Many health problems can be traced back to various scientific developments. But yes I would, you underestimate love and the power it has over people.


Back in the dark ages, children had a low rate of survival. If that continued, you probably would not be living. In fact, I grantee you will not be living without even a club for protection.

I enjoy how the all clearly are related to atheism, seems more of an attack than an actual caring charity but that's just my opinion.


Yep. Just your horribly biased opinion.

Witch? Burn her!


Keeping with the old habits that killed millions of innocents in the name of Christianity? And that still kills today?
MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
4,012 posts
Shepherd

Learn to pay attention to the world you live and not just learn your world from the news.


Ummm... I do pay attention to the world, and I was in Iraq several years ago. I saw what was going on there, and talked to the people who live there. I have friends still there, as well as in Afghanistan and other areas of the world.

The war are over oil. Using religion to back up an opinion is no different than using any other philosophy.


Oil may be one part of our involvement in the Middle East, however that is not the only conflict in the world today, and oil is not the reason that the Palestinians and Jews are still slaughtering eachother, or that many Muslims are calling a Jihad against Christians.

Try to know what you are talking about before you make a statement based on opinion rather than fact.

Remember the vast majority of charities are religious or were founded as religious. Think Red Cross.


Really? Let's get some statistics to back up your statement please. Also the Red Cross is not, and has never been, a religious organization. Red Cross Info
NoNameC68
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NoNameC68
5,048 posts
Shepherd

The evidence even from those here seem to suggest most aren't willing to bend.


It's rare to see immediate effects from debates. If you see a theist and they support something stupid, you can't change their mind by pointing out flaws in their way of thinking.

If for some reason you can't sway them, then you need to take a different approach to the problem. There's no easy solution, but trying to fight religion as a whole is the worst.

There are religious wars going on left and right, terrorism is at it's peak


A few people take their religion so serious that they perform acts of terrorism simply because someone else mentioned their god or prophet. This is unfortunate.

If I wanted everything that's abused to be banned, we wouldn't have video games, alcohol, internet, guns, knives, so on and so on.

I honestly don't see how converting Christians to atheism will solve the problem with terrorism when the problem isn't with Christians but a different religious group all together.

http://i26.tinypic.com/ogz7dh.jpg

All we can do is cope in this situation and continue living out lives. If there never was religion, we probably wouldn't have this particular problem. However, religion exists and arguing about how religion is a problem won't change the fact that there is religion and there are radicals.

But they have one of the &quotositive things" you mentioned: A feeling that they belong and a social gathering. It does not make street gangs a good thing.


You're busting my balls here. You're clearly missing the point. Yes, one positive when it comes to gangs is a feeling of acceptance, however it comes with even more wrongs.

Most Christian groups aren't trading illegal drugs, shooting up heroin, robbing stores, raping women, so on, and so on. You are merely finding vague similarities between two different groups, one that has a positive influence and is influenced by religion, and one that has a negative influence and is influenced by one's nature to be territorial or by drugs or money.

When I say togetherness, you know what I'm talking about. Religion is a good way for people to be around others rather than sitting alone at home. Once again, I know it will be said, that there are other ways people can gather, but that's not the point, because I'm not arguing that you need religion but that religion does have positive effects.

The rest of your argument seems to be mainly based on "Who cares about the facts?". It may not apply to the average man that the earth revolves around the sun, not the other way around, it applies to scientist. It may not effect you now, but it may effect you later in life or your children grand children ect. Lets say the same example I gave, the earth and the sun. It would be useful in interplanetary travel for the planets to be aligned, and it would be much harder for an average businessman to calculate if everyone believed the sun revolved around the earth.


Christianity is not slowing the advancement of planetary travel. Don't feed me these fallacies.

Yes, religion MAY effect your children. I can raise my child how I damn feel like it. Yes, that belief may hurt them, but you can't exterminate something that may hurt them. In fact, it may hurt them to raise them as whiny atheists. It may harm them to give them chocolate only to find out later in life they are allergic.

I don't like playing with may and might as an excuse to exterminate something.

Lets say the same example I gave, the earth and the sun. It would be useful in interplanetary travel for the planets to be aligned, and it would be much harder for an average businessman to calculate if everyone believed the sun revolved around the earth.


Do you understand that no matter how big religion gets, it never effects what is considered to be scientific fact? Sure, some people may call religious events as facts when they are far from fact, but in the science community, religion doesn't effect anything. Even if a majority of theists believed the sun revolved around the Earth, NASA and private organizations working on space travel would still use data and science and they would be forced to accept that the earth revolved around the sun.

Like I said, I'm not a scientist, so it won't make a difference in the world if I believe in creationism over evolution, or even if I believed the world was flat. If I have no scientific basis, experts will merely ignore me.

You're taking the negatives of religion and elevating them to an unrealistic height and saying "this might happen."

If someone says the sun revolves around the earth, then you will have to debate them on it. If they use religion to back their point, all you can do is move on.

The only sciences that religion currently has a hold on are those involving stem cell research, cloning, and other forms of science that is highly debating when it comes to morality from both theists and atheists.

Oil and religion. And of course don't forget all the extremist with the bombs strapped to there back.


Yeah, because EVERY Christian you seeing walking on the streets is a crazy terrorist ready to fuck shit up. You're taking what one minor group does and elevating it as if it's common between all theists. Most theists don't strap bombs to their backs.

THEY ARE NOT NEEDED TO MAKE CHARITIES! Think Non belief Relief.


Of course you don't need religion to start a charity. The same goes for war. You don't need religion to start a war or a terrorist act.

Every time there's a negative, you say it's because of religion. Every time you see a positive, you say it would have happened anyway even if there wasn't religion.

Science is a pursuit based off basic human curiosity. Religion is based off the basic human need to be loved. Clearly one is much more important than the other.


Some people seek the truth while others seek acceptance. Why not allow people to feel accepted at the cost of truth if they aren't causing any harm? Some people seek knowledge, while others seek a good life. Why not have both? Because some people simply don't care if they evolved from a former animal or if the world is round.

You're killing a whole heard of cattle for one sick calf.

I am stating that street gangs can give the same feelings, yet you would not call them positive. My local church may not have murdered anyone, but no one that they dislike lives in the aria. Catholic priests are famous for ****. Many churches encourage attacking gays and such.


Encouraging the attack on gays and not supporting gays are two entirely different things.

Many churches preach that homosexuality is wrong. If there is a homosexual, they are generally ignored. I know a lot of theists, some of them against homosexuals. However, none of them attack homosexuals or protest against their rights. Most Christians may talk about how wrong homosexuality is, but they ignore homosexuals or change their act when they talk to homosexuals in person and keep their mouth shut.

However, people do speak out against gays. This is unfortunate, but understand that you also have atheists who speak out against gays as well. You don't need religion to be against a sex, race, lifestyle, or sexual preference.

So you would give millions, if not billions, of lives so you could have a warm fuzzy feeling?


I would never give up my guns. Many people have been killed by them, but I won't give up my guns.

So yes, I would not give up a religion, ONE THAT I AM NOT ABUSING, simply because some other nut case is abusing it. That's a logical fallacy in itself.

That most people have never heard of. The Red Cross is much, much more effective. Giving these people hope, false or not, is just as important as aid.


To be fair, you don't need religion to help the sick. You don't need religion to start a charity or anything of the sort.

But if a charity, founded on religion, is formed, then great! There's a positive for religion, regardless if the religion part was required or not.

Yep. Just your horribly biased opinion.


Actually the link you provided was terribly biased...

I can't complain though. The site you linked announces that they are not affiliated with religion as if they are trying to spread atheism in the same way some charities announce they are affiliated with a religion as a way to convert people into believers.

I can understand not wanting to donate to religious charities, but that sounds like something that should be left in the description as extra information, not the main draw to the site. Rather than being "Non-believers charity", why not just "charity"?

Charities should not thrive off the point that they are or are not religious. But if that's the charity you wish to donate to, then I won't stop you.

Keeping with the old habits that killed millions of innocents in the name of Christianity? And that still kills today?


That's funny, because most Christians aren't killing millions of people.

If you have a single man who kills 20 Billion people in the name of God, then you can say religion killed 20 Billion people, even though it was merely a single man who killed them, or .00001 of all theists. Just keep that in mind.
MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
4,012 posts
Shepherd

I honestly don't see how converting Christians to atheism will solve the problem with terrorism when the problem isn't with Christians but a different religious group all together.


Who's converting? I must have really missed something here, because you are speaking as though it's been said that we should do away with religions entirely. I know I didn't say it, and I don't remember it being said elsewhere, although I have a habit of hopping on the forums when I'm tired so I could have easily missed it. However if all Christians gave up their religion we could see a decrease in terrorism, at least theoretically, since the Jihad has been called on Christians, not Atheists
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