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Forums → WEPR → [Necro] Does God exist?

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locoace3
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locoace3
15,053 posts
Nomad

since there really s no topic on whether or not he really exists and created people i decided to make one


start debating... NOW!

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samy
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samy
4,871 posts
Nomad

Go to court and refrain from swearing on the Bible and see what happens.


The thing is, is that I fail to see what the problem with swearing on the bible is. I understand that the problem is the principal behind it but I also know that swearing on the bible is a solemn affair. It symbolizes the fight between good and evil, that if you lie you will go to jail, that a massively powerful being is watching you.

They are angry that they live in a secular society which doesn't hold secular values. They are angry that every time they turn around religious groups are trying to use their dogma as justification to infringe upon the rights of others.


But what justifies secular? If one is to proclaim that religious groups are forcing their beliefs on others first shouldn't you see if it isn't you forcing your beliefs? If a court house wants to put up the ten commandments so be it, if it doesn't so be it, if it wants to use a quote from a secular thinker so be it, only when that court tells me that I have to follow the ten commandments because they are in the bible must you protest.

And the interesting thing about the angry ones is that they are angry at being oppressed.


Are the angry at the right thing? Being angry at the religious doesn't further the atheistic cause, it only hurts it.
MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
4,005 posts
Shepherd

The thing is, is that I fail to see what the problem with swearing on the bible is. I understand that the problem is the principal behind it but I also know that swearing on the bible is a solemn affair. It symbolizes the fight between good and evil, that if you lie you will go to jail, that a massively powerful being is watching you.


True, but if you refuse people assume you are going to be dishonest, which is actually the opposite of the truth. If you are honest enough to admit that you don't believe in the bible, in front of a bunch of people who do, you should be more trusted, but it has the opposite effect.

If one is to proclaim that religious groups are forcing their beliefs on others first shouldn't you see if it isn't you forcing your beliefs?


True, and many people are forcing their beliefs on others. I, for example, am continuously attempting to force my belief that we shouldn't infringe upon other people's rights upon others. However am I infringing upon anyone's rights in so doing? Not at all. I am trying to create an environment where the free exercise of one man's beliefs is never allowed to interfere with another man's free exercise of his beliefs.

Take abortion for example. People are continuously trying to make it illegal on the grounds that life begins at conception and thus it's murder. However there is absolutely no science or law to support this, and it's enactment would infringe upon other people's rights. By blocking this legislature no one's rights are being infringed upon.

Same with prayer in school. You can still pray all you want in school, you can even tote your Bible around and read from it. But you cannot force others to pray, or set aside a sanctioned time for prayer. Yet Christians have been crying about this one for decades. No one's rights are being infringed upon, and the legislation actually prevents people from having their rights infringed upon.

Are the angry at the right thing? Being angry at the religious doesn't further the atheistic cause, it only hurts it.


I would think that many have justification to be angry, however many go about expressing it improperly. Many would rather wax nearly as hateful as the groups that they accuse of hate. While it is most likely not a majority in any sense of the word who behave this way, it is enough to help perpetuate the stereotype of the 'angry atheists', although when you get to know most of us you'll see that is typically far from the case.

Just as many would find with getting to know more Christians. Many are tolerant and kind hearted people once you get to know them, however many times atheists won't give them a chance because of the stereotypes placed on Christians. I think atheists, knowing what a vast minority they are, are simply more sensitive, especially being that ~70% of Americans are Christian. That's a daunting number to approach in any manner, especially in opposition.
samy
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samy
4,871 posts
Nomad

If you are honest enough to admit that you don't believe in the bible, in front of a bunch of people who do, you should be more trusted, but it has the opposite effect.


It simply doesn't fit in the context of the time, the point on display isn't that you are an atheist but that you are about to testify against or for another human. If you told the same people in the right context you truly had read the bible and believed it to be wrong it might inspire more trust. Atheists shouldn't attempt to actively convert by denying religion either; it's counter-productive.

I'll address the other points in a bit, I have a paper I need to finish first.
Kyouzou
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Kyouzou
5,061 posts
Jester

Why is it that so many people assume that atheists are immoral bastards? I would think that morals are something you gain as you grow up, things that eventually become a part of who you are. If I can have wholesome values without having the belief that if I do bad, I will be punished for all eternity, shouldn't that be a better judge of character than those who do it to escape eternal damnation?


Using the threat of a divine punishment to enforce these values seems almost Totalitarian to me.

314d1
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314d1
3,817 posts
Nomad

Are the angry at the right thing? Being angry at the religious doesn't further the atheistic cause, it only hurts it.


Lets see here... Lets take a little trip threw secular history.

The Greek of course being the acceptation, most religions were fully intolerant of anyone who believed differently, the Jews have orders in there book to stone nonbelievers. Typically stoned, burned, and otherwise murdered.

Now a little closer we have Shakespeare times, William had a book with an atheist as an antagonist. At the time, atheist virtually meant "Godless and immoral". Before that time as well as around it people who didn't believe were still shunned.

America's founding and the revelation was done by people of several religions and they were rather tolerant of religion at that point. Major point in history, not being able to kill people who don't agree with your religion!


Now lets get closer to the modern time, to who was one of the first "angry atheists", Mark Twain. Samuel Clemens. A very vocal atheist for that time, he wrote several works against religion including Letters to the Earth. I am not sure how he was taken by the general public, personally.

Then there was the cold war, were America used our foolish assumption and made atheism an enemy, much like modern people are doing with Islam. Except well atheism wasn't the driving factor or any factor of the Russians. They simply had a different religion(being none) and America demonized it, adding officially the "In god" things.

Finally, modern times! The invention of the internet seems to be killing religion, Thunderf00t has a decent video if you want to watch on that. Britain is secular now. Now, it is OK to be an atheist in some places! The "angry atheists" are also visible now. But being an atheist is much easier than the ancestors had it, now there are atheist forums. Atheist groups. Atheists actually have a say in how things work now! For some reason we did not have that when we were silent. Things will continue to get better, as long as at least a few atheist remain "angry" or at least "militant". I personally prefer the term "Aggressive", it sounds cooler.
MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
4,005 posts
Shepherd

Britain is secular now.


Britain is not secular, it's still a theocracy. However it's socially acceptable to not belong to the Church of England (mostly).
314d1
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314d1
3,817 posts
Nomad

Britain is not secular, it's still a theocracy. However it's socially acceptable to not belong to the Church of England (mostly).


Perhaps secular is the wrong word. What about something like "Has a bunch of atheists"?
MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
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Shepherd

Perhaps secular is the wrong word. What about something like "Has a bunch of atheists"?


True, although Britain does have an official state religion, which means it is not secular, it has shown a fair amount of religious tolerance, primarily toward atheists. There are many secular values there despite it's official status as a theocracy.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

Since this argument on atheist or agnostic came up again I'm just putting my video up.

Atheist or Agnostic

Go to court and refrain from swearing on the Bible and see what happens. Tell Christians you are an atheist and look at their reaction.


I wonder if you would get the same reaction if you left out that you were atheist an simply said it was because of being an advocate for the separation of church and state?

Why is it that so many people assume that atheists are immoral *******s? I would think that morals are something you gain as you grow up, things that eventually become a part of who you are. If I can have wholesome values without having the belief that if I do bad, I will be punished for all eternity, shouldn't that be a better judge of character than those who do it to escape eternal ****ation?


Your right, though many theists believe morality comes from God. So denying God's existence they equate to also denying morality.

Finally, modern times! The invention of the internet seems to be killing religion, Thunderf00t has a decent video if you want to watch on that.


The Internet: Where religions come to die
samy
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samy
4,871 posts
Nomad

Lets see here... Lets take a little trip threw secular history.


All beliefs have been persecuted, are you saying atheists don't have the stones to get over it? Romans killed Christians, Christians killed Muslims, Muslims killed Christians, name a group in history that hasn't been persecuted.

Things will continue to get better, as long as at least a few atheist remain "angry" or at least "militant"


Yet you have a problem with Christians who wish to convert? Being angry at religion isn't the right thing to do, creating a new identity for your self and atheists in general is the right then to do.
Avorne
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Avorne
3,085 posts
Nomad

I don't see how or why we should create a new identity for ourselves. We are frank and honest in our lack of belief in deities. I see no way to change that.

DoctorHouseNCIS
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DoctorHouseNCIS
304 posts
Nomad

Does anything exist?

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

Does anything exist?


Simple answer, yes.
AnaLoGMunKy
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AnaLoGMunKy
1,573 posts
Blacksmith

Does anything exist?


It doesn't matter. We deal with the perceived now.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
8,256 posts
Regent

Does anything exist?

3 words... isn't that spam?
And anyway this is not a question to be asked in this thread, if you want you can go to the Is Reality Real thread.
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