Forums → WEPR → [Necro] Does God exist?

Yes he does, some people may argue that there is no &quotroof", but do you really need any proof to believe in God?

Yes he does, some people may argue that there is no &quotroof", but do you really need any proof to believe in God?

Yes, if you are not a complete idiot or sheep....

I think you need to reconsider who is the real "idiot".

Yes he does, some people may argue that there is no &quotroof", but do you really need any proof to believe in God?

Yes he does, some people may argue that there is no &quotroof", but do you really need any proof to believe in God?

but do you really need any proof to believe in God?

Apologies for not getting back sooner.
I am almost ashamed.

Initial comment on Page 23 and then I almost responded on page 39, untill I lost everything (disaster strikes.) Wonderfully recovered and followed up with a testing testing 1 2 1 2 (obviously couldn't be my fault I navigated away from the page.) Noobie has never been uttered more deservingly!
Since then I have thought to myself shall I procrastinate today or put it off untill tomorrow?

However my initial point and the following opinion may still be pertinent.

Thank you Mage for taking the time to answer my points so gracefully. It made me realise and indeed I have attempted to investigate and understand all the information shared on the blog up to that point.

I have also valiantly (if I may) attempted also to catch up with everything shared up untill this point before tentatively venturing another humble opinion. I must confess the information you and others on both sides of this argument has led me to what can only be described as the tangenthikers guide to existence.
May I say it added sometimes to my tendency to procrastinate.

Mage;
The problem with these argument is non of these things have the properties life does. Once we apply the properties of life to such objects it does become likely.
Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker

I watched this and have decided that it requires at least as much a leap of faith (if not more) than the leap required for faith in a creator/alien/first cause/whatever...

The Logical answer is within your answer...[b]Once we apply the properties of life to such objects it does become likely.[/b]
echoed by your link;

The reason the smashed watch argument has never been accepted by science IS;
1. Clocks do not reproduce!
2. Clocks do noy mutate!
3. Clocks are not subject to natural selection!
4. The components of clocks (springs, gears and hands) do not have natural affinities for eachother like the components of cells (protiens, lipids, carbohydrates and other molecules) do.

Please correct me if I'm wrong?

Even with all the understanding Science has gained of DNA/RNA structure thus far, even after mixing it all together in what we think to be the original primordial soup. Scientists have not been able to create even the simplest form of life? or have they?


All of the scientific argument or in some cases the absence of ( I could also say the same after perusing the threads of the theistic arguments, indeed some of the most disgusting things I have witnessed and heard have been done in the name of this or the other religion).

The past and indeed present is littered with Religion against religion...., religion against state......, religion on behalf of state......., state on behalf of religion.......,state against religion......,religion against science.......Repurcussion in the so called enlightened world of today is the science/secularism strangle hold on religion in most places today seems to be science/secularism...... I wonder if science has already become and will continue to be in the future the opiumof the masses ie. science against science.....,science against state....., state against science,and so on.

The above is exactly why I phrased my initial opinion the way I did.

Simple Logic has to take precedence in place of all this preconception.

Please may I try to illustrate once more.

You, your wife and children are lost on foot in the middle of the Sahara desert dying of thirst etc..

You see (or at least what seems to be) a beautiful mansion surrounded by vast gardens in the distance. You head for it.. You get close enough to realise that it isn't the mirage you almost dismissed earlier.
In the gardens you and your loved ones drink your fill of the purest water you ever drank and eat of the finest fruit you have ever tasted. The vast gardens team with every sort of life.
In the most exquisite house you have ever beheld you find all the things you could ever want or indeed wish for in abundance...
The strange thing is there SEEMS to be no occupier, no owner or landlord. However you and your family appreciate and thank the owner daily in thought and deed whoever built this Oasis. You and yours look after it untill your rescue....

Time goes by....

You no longer wish to find your way out of the Sahara..... Yourself and your Wife die content aswell as your children.... However one of your childrens children somewhere down the line start to prophesy: The landord has given me a message, all he asks is that we look after his investment. The next generation states that the landlord is just in asking you sacrifice.....
The next one says he is just in demanding a blood sacrifice of your first born sons and daughters in return
for all the blessings you enjoy....
The factions splinter and eventually war upon one another.
Each one thinking the landord is indeed on their side (the side of the just).
Eventually they fracture and yet more blood is spilt.
Throughout all this time there are exceptions who think outside of these factions men of Science and Art who are at first tortured and horribly murdered for daring to analyse, to excercise thought and to choose if they wished to disagree with what they see....

In time these thinkers became a faction of thier own and some start to reason that there certainly is no Landlord at all. The Exquisite house and gardens and life inside and out actually came about by chance! We even have mathematical formula to prove it and everything!!!
THERE IS NO LANDLORD......EVERY MAN FOR HIMSELF.....HOPEFULLY WE WILL BE ABLE TO STOP BEFORE WE DESTROY OUR HOME, AND EVEN IF NOT WE CAN OBVIOUSLY FIND AND ESCAPE TO SOMEWHERE BEYOND THE EVER ENCROACHING SAND....

I am sure you can imagine the neglect this metaphorical estate would have endured over all this time.

Please dont point out the obvious inadequacies of the illustration.... Some religious belief/teachings and even more scientific study by individuals and groups have improved our lives for the better.
I have merely attempted to give a very brief and very inadequate overview of human history.

The main thrust of this argument is however based in logic
The Earth seems to be unique in the Universe.
May I bring everyone still reading this back to my initial argument.
Would you believe anyone who told you that the house you live in built itself, the car you drive just happened, the computer you are using created itself! What if the inventors/owners or designers weren't able or willing to defend their creation?

I am sure if computers, cars and houses were still around long after people forget how to make them. A very convinced intelligent person at some time in the future could prove with a theorem that they created themselves and are the direct result of, just the right amount of raw materials coming together,at just the right time, in just the right conditions etc...OR indeed they may even be a miracle a gift from the Gods

CONCLUSION

Everyone has the ability and right to express their individual opinion on any matter they chose (I really wish people would do it more often, rather than identifying and assimilating themselves into or onto a particular section of society)


JUST BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T HEARD FROM THE LANDLORD FOR A TIME DOESN'T MEAN THERE ISN'T ONE!

Following this the landlords opinion of his tenants will inevitably be the importantant one.....




















.Replicating the environmental factors and adding in the basic chemical compounds abundant on this planet it was found to be quite easy for basic RNA molecules to form. So given early earth environment and the chemicals available self replicating molecules could have easily formed on there own.






Anyway.... To my point...

Suspension of




It wouldn't be an accepted scientific theory if it didn't have evidence.



What are the major evidences which support the Big Bang theory?
* First of all, we are reasonably certain that the universe had a beginning.
* Second, galaxies appear to be moving away from us at speeds proportional to their distance. This is called "Hubble's Law," named after Edwin Hubble (1889-1953) who discovered this phenomenon in 1929. This observation supports the expansion of the universe and suggests that the universe was once compacted.
* Third, if the universe was initially very, very hot as the Big Bang suggests, we should be able to find some remnant of this heat. In 1965, Radioastronomers Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson discovered a 2.725 degree Kelvin (-454.765 degree Fahrenheit, -270.425 degree Celsius) Cosmic Microwave Background radiation (CMB) which pervades the observable universe. This is thought to be the remnant which scientists were looking for. Penzias and Wilson shared in the 1978 Nobel Prize for Physics for their discovery.
* Finally, the abundance of the "light elements" Hydrogen and Helium found in the observable universe are thought to support the Big Bang model of origins.
Have you or anyone you have ever met witnessed or even heard of anything that has designed and built itself?
I wouldn't use the term design or built in regards to life. However do we have an example of something that can form on it's own, then yes crystals. They are very complex things and form on there own.
I am sure if a person tried to sell you the idea that the house you live in,the car you drive, the computer you are using, at some time in the past were just raw materials and somehow they came together in a specific way that enabled their function and purpose.Would you not label them crazy insane!
The problem with these argument is non of these things have the properties life does. Once we apply the properties of life to such objects it does become likely.
Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker
As you are no doubt aware the simplest form of life is far more complex than anything that man has created thus far.
Are you talking about modern life or life in the past? Because we have made things that are more complex then the simplest form of life that has naturally evolved. Even if this was the case complexity doesn't equate to a creator.
Therefore reason and logic must dictate that something or someone has created life and the systems to support such.
Replicating the environmental factors and adding in the basic chemical compounds abundant on this planet it was found to be quite easy for basic RNA molecules to form. So given early earth environment and the chemicals available self replicating molecules could have easily formed on there own.
Regardless of the mind boggling time frames attributed to spontaneous design without the need for a designer.
It's as much spontaneous design as the mixture of chlorine and ammonia spontaneously designs toxic fumes.





This is a topic where no one is right,
Does God Exist? I say say such a being likely doesn't. Others say such a being exists. One of us would have to be right.


Posted Oct 9, '10 at 7:02am

Mrwalker82 you wonder why you have less then one vote? This is a topic where no one is right, and everyone is entitled to a opinion but you don't need to be so critical.
While I agree that a certain amount of tact is desirable... some people have gotten sick of the FACT that religion is not helping and has actually been making things worse all along. Then tact goes out the window cos they are screaming at you to see the elephant in the room but the religious ppl will argue that the elephant is non-existent and that we should all bow down to their particular groups deity. I can see the elephant... we have a good relationship. We have a giggle at the religious people. Some people, perhaps mrwalker is one, would rather the elephant leave so we can get some space and have a breather. Problem is the elephant needs help from the religious people to leave and like I said, they say its not their.
20 million (estimated). Being evil. Drowning (Yes, even the Plesiosaurs). Gen.6-8
14,700 Israelites. Complaining about the previous two loving assassinations. Plague Num.16:49 (The management thanks you for your feedback. Now die!)
24,000 Israelites Sexual immorality with Moabite women and worshiping Baal. Plague. Num.25:9 (Proving once more that despite God being obviously real and very jealous, Israelites would worship a sandwich if Moses so much as popped out to buy a newspaper.)
rationwiki
that's just a few examples of god doing lovely genocide i think I'll switch to Satan
it goes who,how many
reason
how they were killed
where you can find it in the bible
And you do your fellow atheists a disservice by adopting incorrect terms and perpetuating the misconceptions
I was quite different from my fellow Christians and I'm fairly sure I differ from my fellow atheists in many ways as well. I would rather not identify myself with any groups but ease of describing my beliefs demands it. Yes he does, some people may argue that there is no &quotroof", but do you really need any proof to believe in God?
yes I do. Why don't you require proof before believing?




Yes he does, some people may argue that there is no &quotroof", but do you really need any proof to believe in God?
How can I believe in something that I never saw, felt or heard, though it should be all around and loving and caring about me? How can I believe in something utterly illogical, flawed and contradicting? Something that is supposed to be higher than man and perfect, yet abounds of human values, acts and thoughts?

My apologies in advance if any further response is long in coming.

Hello again,

Please overlook my latest blunder my post should have ended at (Following this the landlords opinion of his tenants will inevitably be the importantant one.....)
The rest is some of the threads I copied into WORD when I was perusing the previous threads.

Seriously long comment now ey!

Apologies

I will try to respond, but I'm not exactly sure where your posts begin and what your replying to ends.

I watched this and have decided that it requires at least as much a leap of faith (if not more) than the leap required for faith in a creator/alien/first cause/whatever.

Even with all the understanding Science has gained of DNA/RNA structure thus far, even after mixing it all together in what we think to be the original primordial soup. Scientists have not been able to create even the simplest form of life? or have they?

JUST BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T HEARD FROM THE LANDLORD FOR A TIME DOESN'T MEAN THERE ISN'T ONE!

My apologies in advance if any further response is long in coming.

In time these thinkers became a faction of thier own and some start to reason that there certainly is no Landlord at all. The Exquisite house and gardens and life inside and out actually came about by chance! We even have mathematical formula to prove it and everything!!!

I was quite different from my fellow Christians and I'm fairly sure I differ from my fellow atheists in many ways as well

Thanks for the tip Mage. Please see below what my post should have looked like (hopefully).

Apologies for not getting back sooner.
I am almost ashamed.
Initial comment on Page 23 and then I almost responded on page 39, untill I lost everything (disaster strikes.) Wonderfully recovered and followed up with a testing testing 1 2 1 2 (obviously couldn't be my fault I navigated away from the page.) Noobie has never been uttered more deservingly!
Since then I have thought to myself shall I procrastinate today or put it off untill tomorrow?
However my initial point and the following opinion may still be pertinent.
Thank you Mage for taking the time to answer my points so gracefully. It made me realise and indeed I have attempted to investigate and understand all the information shared on the blog up to that point.
I have also valiantly (if I may) attempted also to catch up with everything shared up untill this point before tentatively venturing another humble opinion. I must confess the information you and others on both sides of this argument has led me to what can only be described as the tangenthikers guide to existence.
May I say it added sometimes to my tendency to procrastinate.
Mage;

The problem with these argument is none of these things have the properties life does. Once we apply the properties of life to such objects it does become likely.
Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker

Once we apply the properties of life to such objects it does become likely

The reason the smashed watch argument has never been accepted by science IS;
1. Clocks do not reproduce!
2. Clocks do noy mutate!
3. Clocks are not subject to natural selection!
4. The components of clocks (springs, gears and hands) do not have natural affinities for eachother like the components of cells (protiens, lipids, carbohydrates and other molecules) do.

Interesting post ThinkReasonAction. I saw mine about the elephant in your c/p section

I agree that we dont know if there is a landlord but since he either absent, hiding or non-existent I am quite against people waging war in the name of the unknown and claiming to know the unknown as if it were closer than their own father. Im sure you agree with this too as do most sane ppl, religious or not.

I have no leap of faith that there is an creator/alien/first cause/whatever etc... its like balancing a see saw and trying to guess which way it will fall. I say left one day and right the next. There is no faith here merely observational guessing.

Sure I can see how easy it would be for life to have had some kik start by an entity unknown but its the see saw, its also easy for it not to have and for chance and time to take hold (which it has had plenty of).

For me the question "is there a god?" should be for philosophical musing and for enjoyment. My concern and many others concern is the nutters that "know" they are right.

So I say to religion "you have shown nothing to prove your right so your time on this world is over and I will speak out against you and ensure you stop creating so much pain, everyone is free to believe in whatever they want."

I think thats fair.

Hi Mage

No it doesn't require a leap of faith it just requires the observation of what the building blocks of life can do.Actually we have created RNA polymers. http://www.bioedonline.org/news/news.cfm?art=5277
Anyway we already new from this point on self replicating molecules can form. This means the process from non life to life is possible.

The feat, never performed before, bolsters the 'RNA world' hypothesis, which suggests that life began when RNA, a polymer related to DNA that can duplicate itself and catalyse reactions, emerged from a prebiotic soup of chemicals

Although Sutherland has shown that it is possible to build one part of RNA from small molecules, objectors to the RNA-world theory say the RNA molecule as a whole is too complex to be created using early-Earth geochemistry. "The flaw with this kind of research is not in the chemistry. The flaw is in the logic â" that this experimental control by researchers in a modern laboratory could have been available on the early Earth," says Robert Shapiro, a chemist at New York University.

On this point, if we could demonstrated such a structure being able to from on it's own then I would accept it as a likely possibility.