ForumsWEPR[Necro] Does God exist?

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locoace3
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locoace3
15,053 posts
Nomad

since there really s no topic on whether or not he really exists and created people i decided to make one


start debating... NOW!

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Moegreche
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Moegreche
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Duke

I have merely attempted to give a very brief and very inadequate overview of human history.
The main thrust of this argument is however based in logic


There is no hint of logic, properly understood, in this landlord analogy. In the broadest sense, it is an argument by analogy. But the relevant disanalogies are so severe in this case that no one should rationally accept this argument as demonstrating anything. You seem to recognize this in your post, so I'll leave it at that.

But there is one flawed premise in all the arguments you put forth. The premise in question is a crucial part of the general Intelligent Design Argument. The ID argument is meant to show that the universe appears to have a design - a function - and the best explanation for this is that the universe has a designer. Notice the similarity of this argument to your examples of the mansion, computers, cars, and houses. Each of these has a designed purpose and so must have a designer.
But here is the flawed premise:

Having an intelligent designer increases the probability of the universe obtaining as it has - with all its properties that allow for life to form.

What supports this premise are notions like a tornado blowing through a scrapyard and randomly assembling a 747. The improbability of this is so high as to make it nearly impossible. But the inclusion of a designer who oversaw the construction of the 747 makes it far more likely.
But for this premise to be sound, the theist must present a reason for thinking that a designer would make the formation of our universe more probable.
In order to show this, we would have to have access to the designer's motives and abilities. Simply having a designer present doesn't, by itself, show the universe as we know it to be more probable than not. Let's say an expert woodworker is the designer in the scrapyard. Does this increase the probability of a 747 being constructed? Absolutely not!
The premise in question takes for granted two critical and very contentious assumptions: 1) the designer was capable of making our universe, complete with all its crucial features, and 2) the designer wanted to make our universe, and did so for particular reasons.

Now, positing a perfect, all-knowing God can easily explain the first assumption, but not the second. Suppose God exists and is just sitting in nothingness. God hasn't created the universe or anything within it. As a perfect being, what is God's motivation for creating anything at all? If this perfect being wants a perfect universe, then it already has that simply by its own existence. Why create additional, less perfect things to fill up a void? Did God lack something? Hopefully not - if God lacked something, then God would fail to be perfect. There doesn't seem to be a reason for God to produce anything at all - so how does this increase the probability of our universe obtaining given God's existence?

The only rational answer is: it doesn't. God's posited existence doesn't make this universe any more probable than any other. The theist can respond by saying that we can't understand God's motivations and so can't say why God would create this particular universe, or any universe at all. That's a fine response, but then the theist gives up the soundness of the crucial premise. If you have no idea why a designer would design something and actually have reasons to think he wouldn't design anything, that doesn't support the claim that the designer's presence increases the probability of a particular designed object's existence.

Honestly, I can't even get on board with claims that our universe is highly improbable. Proponents of this view claim that if anything had been different that the universe would be radically different from how it is - if it even existed at all. But how are we to know that the laws of physics (should they exist) didn't simply necessitate the formation of our actual universe? It's not a lottery drawing where it's easy to see how the numbers that came about could be different. We don't really understand the most fundamental aspects of our universe, so to claim that its formation is improbable seems unwarranted.

One last note on ID-style arguments. Many of them also work off the irreducibility of physical structures. Eyes and wings are common examples. These features don't make sense when trying to piece them all together - they only work when everything is there all together. So from an evolutionary standpoint, there is no environmental advantage gained from having these pieces until they're all formed. Therefore, some designer must have seen where this was all going and pushed it along that way.
But this line of thinking also has a critical flaw. Consider the process of building an arch from stone. You've got to have scaffolding to hold up the arch, but one you put the keystone in (the final stone at the top middle of the arch) you can remove the scaffolding and the structure will support its own weight. If someone came along and saw an arch and didn't know how it was constructed, it too would seem irreducibly complex. Not a single one of the stones in the arch could be there unless the whole thing was put into place at once - or at least the ignorant observer would think.
Just like the arch, however, the physical structures we see in nature might have also had some similar "scaffolding" that is no longer evolutionarily necessary. Structures like eyes and wings need not have evolved in the sense that we see them now. This flaw in thinking is due to a false presupposition that there is a design - an ultimate end - to a process like evolution. We now know this kind of thinking is simply false.

So, not only is a designer not needed to explain the universe as we know it, but having a designer doesn't seem to help explain our universe's existence.
Cinna
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Cinna
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Nomad

if God lacked something, then God would fail to be perfect. There doesn't seem to be a reason for God to produce anything at all


God made mankind, and in that case the entire universe as we know it, in order to have people to love. Note that he made people to love, not to be loved by the people. He doesn't need our love, but being a perfect entity he is filled with 'everlasting love' in a sense, and in order to share it created us. This of course raises a question, 'why does God want to share his love?' Well, because he's kind. <omit 'I guess'>

When you talk about the scaffolding argument, in reference to the fact that complex parts do/do not prove either evolution or intelligent design, I'm not quite sure how you are articulating your point. In both the case of an arch and wings, there are needed many parts to function correctly. Although you may be able to build an arch without an ignorant person being able to understand it, are you saying the same is true for wings?
Fluid
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Fluid
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Farmer

Catching a bit of a deja vu sense here... Haven't we dropped this topic before? (I'd bet I've already posted in here)

It can't be proven, thus it is a matter of personal opinion/belief/whatever. It's pointless fighting opinions with more opinions, so let's give this a rest, shall we?

MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
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Shepherd

God made mankind, and in that case the entire universe as we know it, in order to have people to love. Note that he made people to love, not to be loved by the people. He doesn't need our love, but being a perfect entity he is filled with 'everlasting love' in a sense, and in order to share it created us. This of course raises a question, 'why does God want to share his love?' Well, because he's kind


I have a wonderful series on youtube that I feel approaches this in a very logical manner, addressing only what 'love' is, and how God expressed his 'love' in the Bible. Take a while and watch it.

Introduction
Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

Part 5

Part 6

Part 7
Ghgt99
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Ghgt99
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Nomad

I have a wonderful series on youtube that I feel approaches this in a very logical manner, addressing only what 'love' is, and how God expressed his 'love' in the Bible. Take a while and watch it.

Introduction
Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

Part 5

Part 6

Part 7


Is that your YouTube channel?
Cinna
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Cinna
753 posts
Nomad

Mr. Walker I'm just going to guess now, the videos are of killing in the bible? Yes? No?

MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
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Shepherd

Is that your YouTube channel?


No it's not.

Mr. Walker I'm just going to guess now, the videos are of killing in the bible? Yes? No?


Not exclusively. The atrocities committed by God are only a small portion of the logical inconsistencies with an omnibenevolent being.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

I am no scientist but what I understand after reading the article is;
That they poured all the right chemicals at the right time into the right sort of mould that formed one part of a ribonucleotide. Nowhere did I find mention of self replication.


Once you have such polymers that can combine to form self replicating molecules. That part had been previously established through observation of such polymers. The fact that such polymers could form under conditions found in an early earth environment shows that such steps from non living non replicating chemicals to self replicating molecules is possible.

Please do not misunderstand I have the greatest respect for your opinion. However it looks to me that this can only be described as a leap of faith.


No it doesn't take faith. It's all form observations. Really this just makes you look completely ignorant each and every time you make this statement. Really I have a red hand print on my face from reading this!

Although Sutherland has shown that it is possible to build one part of RNA from small molecules, objectors to the RNA-world theory say the RNA molecule as a whole is too complex to be created using early-Earth geochemistry. "The flaw with this kind of research is not in the chemistry. The flaw is in the logic â�" that this experimental control by researchers in a modern laboratory could have been available on the early Earth," says Robert Shapiro, a chemist at New York University.


This guy doesn't claim God did it either. What he opposes is life arose from some self sustaining and compartmentalized reaction of simple molecules. Either way we are still talking about non living chemicals forming into self replicating molecules.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16382-artificial-molecule-evolves-in-the-lab.html


I dont think it has been demonstrated Mage, at least not yet.


Here's an article on us replicating, well replication.

The previous article shows that such polymers can form on there own. This one shows that they can become self replicating.

One last note on ID-style arguments. Many of them also work off the irreducibility of physical structures. Eyes and wings are common examples. These features don't make sense when trying to piece them all together - they only work when everything is there all together. So from an evolutionary standpoint, there is no environmental advantage gained from having these pieces until they're all formed. Therefore, some designer must have seen where this was all going and pushed it along that way.


Another problem with this argument is that everything pointed to to be irreducibly complex we have shown that intermediate forms work and even these individual parts can have other functions.

God made mankind, and in that case the entire universe as we know it, in order to have people to love.


God: I love you, have debilitating and fatal diseases to deal with. I love you so here's an immune system to deal with those diseases, and here's AIDS to circumvent that immune system so you can die slowly and painfully! I'm so perfect.

Note that he made people to love, not to be loved by the people. He doesn't need our love, but being a perfect entity he is filled with 'everlasting love' in a sense, and in order to share it created us.


God: I don't need your love. NOW WORSHIP ME AND ONLY ME OR SUFFER!
Cinna
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Cinna
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Nomad

No it's not.


Mr. Walker is much more attractive than that guy ... no homo
ThinkReasonAction
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ThinkReasonAction
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Nomad

Hi AnaLoGMunKy

Interesting post ThinkReasonAction. I saw mine about the elephant in your c/p section

Thank you for taking the time to read it all ( twas quite lengthy) ï The Elephant analogy made me laugh.
I agree that we dont know if there is a landlord but since he either absent, hiding or non-existent I am quite against people waging war in the name of the unknown and claiming to know the unknown as if it were closer than their own father. Im sure you agree with this too as do most sane ppl, religious or not.

I very much agree with this statement. I would like to add that;
âIFâ it turns out that a benevolent landlord in some form does exist he would probably be even more disgusted with the horrors perpetrated in his name.
I have no leap of faith that there is an creator/alien/first cause/whatever etc... its like balancing a see saw and trying to guess which way it will fall. I say left one day and right the next. There is no faith here merely observational guessing.

It is very courageous for anyone to admit that they are decidedly undecided sometimes even in mundane circumstances, but I believe it applies even more so, when a subject such as this is discussed. In my personal experience so many people accuse and become exasperated because you choose to keep an open mindâ¦.
Everyone personally should in my opinion always use simple logic and reasoning to thoroughly analyse, any and all of their personal beliefâs.
In short asking honest questions of themselves before even assuming they can benefit anyone with their view on the beliefs of others. Such as;
Am I truly convinced and satisfied with the usual answer to "why does god permit suffering"
-The LORD works in mysterious ways?
Am I truly happy and satisfied with the explanation my religious leader gave concerning the death of my loved one?
Am I truly convinced that either (ALLAH / YAHWEH / THE LORD) even existâs, may it be because I have been reciting passages from infancy onwards, holy words endorsed by the (IMAM / RABBI / PRIEST) from my (KORAN / TALMUD / NEW TESTAMENT) and do I really believe that all the others (INFIDELâs or GENTILES or UNBELIEVERS) will be destroyed in an everlasting fire if they donât accept my view? Is this a God that is deserving of my devotion?

Am I truly convinced of the fact Iâm an Athiest just because of all the trouble religion has caused? Are all the Theists really sheep like idiots being led by the nose? Is it because it may be more comfortable for me not to be accountable to anyone?

Am I truly convinced of the âTheory of evolutionâ just because anything can and will eventually happen given the right amount of time without the need for a Designer/Creator? Or because it obviously has to be true! Was not Evolution taught as fact in school? Is it really possible that all the Laws that seem to govern the universe happened without a Law maker?

In short I believe if every individual on this planet asked themselves honestly "WHY EXACTLY THEY BELIEVE ANYTHING" there would be a lot less hatred and bloodshed.
This would also mark the beginning of true individuality. In my opinion a very overused term.

So I say to religion "you have shown nothing to prove your right so your time on this world is over and I will speak out against you and ensure you stop creating so much pain, everyone is free to believe in whatever they want."
I think thats fair


I agree for the most part. However if everyone is indeed free to believe whatever they want can they still believe in their religion?
MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
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Shepherd

I agree for the most part. However if everyone is indeed free to believe whatever they want can they still believe in their religion?


So long as that belief is entirely private, absolutely. When we begin to use unproven and unfalsifiable opinions as a basis and/or justification for law, education, foreign and domestic policy, and allow this multi-billion dollar industry tax exemption then I say we have crossed the boundary.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer
Moegreche
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Moegreche
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Duke

God made mankind, and in that case the entire universe as we know it, in order to have people to love. Note that he made people to love, not to be loved by the people. He doesn't need our love, but being a perfect entity he is filled with 'everlasting love' in a sense, and in order to share it created us. This of course raises a question, 'why does God want to share his love?' Well, because he's kind. <omit 'I guess'>


If God made the universe to have people to love, then God must have had a reason for creating these people. In other words, God wanted to have to have people to love - He had a desire to create people with whom to share His everlasting love. This is all very nice, but the objection still holds: if God desires X, then it follows that he lacks X.
You could push this point and say that God didn't have this desire - but then why would He create anything if He didn't desire it? God doesn't act without reasons - end of story.
The other part of the objection still holds as well: the universe would have already achieved maximal perfection with God's existence. A perfect being would want a perfect universe and by His own existence that is already achieved. So there is no motivation for God to create anything at all.


When you talk about the scaffolding argument, in reference to the fact that complex parts do/do not prove either evolution or intelligent design, I'm not quite sure how you are articulating your point. In both the case of an arch and wings, there are needed many parts to function correctly. Although you may be able to build an arch without an ignorant person being able to understand it, are you saying the same is true for wings?


That's not quite what the scaffolding argument is meant to show. Proponents of Intelligent Design cite irreducible complexity (physical structures like eyes and wings) as a motivation for accepting an intelligent designer. The scaffolding argument is meant to show that irreducible complexity can occur in nature when parts that facilitated the occurrence of greater complexity are no longer needed. To put it simply: just because there are parts of a physical structure that we don't see now doesn't mean those parts were never there. An arch is irreducibly complex as we see it without the scaffolding. But one the structure is in place, the scaffolding is no longer necessary. In the case of a wing or an eye, the "scaffolding" that allowed these physical structures to form became unnecessary, so we no longer see them.

However if everyone is indeed free to believe whatever they want can they still believe in their religion?


We may be free in a legal sense to believe whatever we want to, but not in an epistemic sense. I may not be tried in a court of law for believing that saltwater taffy has magical healing powers. But I would certainly be held as irrational for this belief. And it is this latter sense with which we should be primarily concerned.
To believe in, say, a Christian God is an unjustified belief. Given the contradictions within the dogma and the absolute lunacy of many of Christianity's claims, I would even contend that such belief is irrational. I would be willing to bet that similar inconsistencies could be found in any major religion. So in a very important sense, we are not allowed to believe whatever we like. There are epistemic constraints we place on belief, and religious belief is simply unwarranted.
Somewhat49
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Somewhat49
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Nomad

Read "Why I Am Not A Christain" by Betrand Russel. It says why all religions can't be existant.

iko
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iko
161 posts
Nomad

God doesn't act without reasons - end of story.


Perhaps God got bored, or you can't understand his reasons. Just saying
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