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44Flames
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44Flames
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Nomad

Do we continue life in HEAVEN for EVER and what would we do if that happened?

OR do we continue live in HELL for EVER suffering because we all sinned?

This is probably the hardest question in the world to answer but I want to know what you think will happen to us?

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arkaninerenegade
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arkaninerenegade
785 posts
Nomad

[quote]Why are you so confident?[quote]
one day.....in the afterlife.......when your burning in hell........i promise i will laugh at you.

Einfach
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Einfach
1,448 posts
Nomad

one day.....in the afterlife.......when your burning in hell........i promise i will laugh at you.

Wouldn't this be sadistic? Not holy-sounding to me. But it wasn't meant to be taken literally, I guess...

Why should I be punished simply for not accepting the religious dogma. How can a God be moral if He punishes those who desire proof. These people who he sentences are those who want to discover the truth for themselves - surely God would rather populate Heaven with those who desire the truth.
arkaninerenegade
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arkaninerenegade
785 posts
Nomad

Why should I be punished simply for not accepting the religious dogma. How can a God be moral if He punishes those who desire proof. These people who he sentences are those who want to discover the truth for themselves - surely God would rather populate Heaven with those who desire the truth.
God punishes sinners and those who dont believe. I mean how can every possible event possible be completely random? Surely there must be a god. Of course there are people like you who must question every thing. Can you simply accept the fact that there are somethings that cant be scientifically proved and must be the direct result of divine intervention.
MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
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Shepherd

Surely there must be a god.


Rather to the contrary. Surely there must not be a god, at least not an all-powerful, all-good, and all-present one. And furthermore everything we know to be a fact about our current universe indicates that there is not only no need for any deity, but that none could even fit, at least not if it is comprised of any matter or energy at all.

Can you simply accept the fact that there are somethings that cant be scientifically proved and must be the direct result of divine intervention.


Nope, because it is not a fact. It's speculation. The only things which cannot be proven or disproved are those things which we either a) do not have the technology to test yet, or b) are not of, and thus cannot interact with the physical world. This leaves with two plausible scenarios. Either one day we will be able to definitively prove or disprove God, or God does not exist, at least in not this universe, and thus cannot, has not, and will never affect it.
arkaninerenegade
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arkaninerenegade
785 posts
Nomad

Rather to the contrary. Surely there must not be a god, at least not an all-powerful, all-good, and all-present one. And furthermore everything we know to be a fact about our current universe indicates that there is not only no need for any deity, but that none could even fit, at least not if it is comprised of any matter or energy at all.
We know from the teachings of Muhammad, peace be upon him, that no one has ever actually seen God - at least not in this lifetime. Nor are we able to use our senses to make some kind of contact with Him. However, we are encouraged in Islam to use our senses and our common sense to recognize that all of this universe could not possibly come into existence on its own. Something had to design it all and then put it into motion. That is beyond our ability to do, yet it is something that we can understand.
We don't have to see an artist to recognize a painting, correct? So, if we see paintings without seeing artists painting them, in the same way, we can believe that Allah created everything without having to see Him (or touch, or hear, etc.)
arkaninerenegade
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arkaninerenegade
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Nomad

Is God pure, good, loving and fair? - If so, then where does evil, hatred and injustice come from?"

Also some other claims atheists make: If God is pure, good, loving and fair? - If so, then where does evil, hatred and injustice come from?"
Allah tells us that He is Pure, Loving, and absolutely Just in every respect. He says that He is the Best of Judges. He also tells us that the life that we are in is a test. He has created all the things that exist and He has created all that happens as well. There is nothing in this existence except what He has created. He also says in the Quran that He created evil (although He is not evil). He is using this as one of the many tests for us.

MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
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Shepherd

We know from the teachings of Muhammad, peace be upon him, that no one has ever actually seen God - at least not in this lifetime. Nor are we able to use our senses to make some kind of contact with Him.However, we are encouraged in Islam to use our senses and our common sense to recognize that all of this universe could not possibly come into existence on its own. Something had to design it all and then put it into motion. That is beyond our ability to do, yet it is something that we can understand.
We don't have to see an artist to recognize a painting, correct? So, if we see paintings without seeing artists painting them, in the same way, we can believe that Allah created everything without having to see Him (or touch, or hear, etc.)


If we are unable to use our senses to contact him, yet we are to rely on our senses and common sense to recognize our world, then common sense would lead one to the conclusion that god does not exist. Here is a foundational contradiction in your beliefs. Your god tells you to use your senses to determine what is real, yet you cannot use your senses to find him.

Furthermore our senses and knowledge have indicated to us that our universe does NOT need a 'designer' and that it could have, and almost surely did, come into existence without the aid of any deity. There was no designer needed, nor evident, for any of what we find today, either elsewhere in our universe or here on our own planet.

Allah tells us that He is Pure, Loving, and absolutely Just in every respect. He says that He is the Best of Judges. He also tells us that the life that we are in is a test. He has created all the things that exist and He has created all that happens as well. There is nothing in this existence except what He has created. He also says in the Quran that He created evil (although He is not evil). He is using this as one of the many tests for us.


If this is true then evil is not bad, as a purely just and loving being would not be capable of creating things which are not just or loving. If evil is indeed bad and unjust and unloving then Allah/God is not purely just or purely loving.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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God punishes sinners and those who dont believe.


Again how can a moral god punish someone for simply wanting proof beforehand?

I mean how can every possible event possible be completely random? Surely there must be a god.


No one is making this claim so your argument here is fallacious. But just because not everything thing is the result of random event does not automatically mean "God did it".

Can you simply accept the fact that there are somethings that cant be scientifically proved and must be the direct result of divine intervention.


Since we have no proof that things happen by divine intervention we can't call this a fact, thus we can't accept such a claim until then.

Nor are we able to use our senses to make some kind of contact with Him. However, we are encouraged in Islam to use our senses and our common sense to recognize that all of this universe could not possibly come into existence on its own. Something had to design it all and then put it into motion.


If we can't detect God in any way we can't claim his existence. Why can't the universe come into existence by natural rather then supernatural means? Even if the universe did have to be designed how can you be sure that it's the God you subscribe to and not another or even many gods?

He is using this as one of the many tests for us.


If this God you worship is a perfect, all powerful, all knowing being then there is no point to any such tests, as he would already know the result of said test. So there would be no knowledge for him to gain from such a test. The only way any such test or even the universe as it is would make any sense with a God would be that if that God was fallible and not omniscient. We can then also blame God for the existence of evil, which would contradict his all loving characteristic.
Sonatavarius
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Sonatavarius
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Farmer

I've been toying w/ something the last few days... what if... what if we're just a giant video game? now this may account for everything... or not... i dunno. i expect a few of you to get rather teste over me throwing in an off the wall idea like this

maybe we just go into a cache or folder somewhere and wait to respawn... the whole hologram thing is what got me thinking. maybe the player plays "God"... or maybe there is a whole hierarchy of "Gods" that manifest from a group of people playing the game.

it would account for a being that could make anything it wanted to happen happen. it would also account for the possibility of the heaven or hell thing... maybe the respective cache we get sent to is an eternal loop of unhappiness or maybe its a folder full of sunshine, rainbows, and happiness...

the big bang may have been the light(s) firing up to project us into existence...

are we just a giant version of the "Sims?" I mean it would allow for interaction w/ us w/o our knowledge.

If Jesus existed then maybe he was just the avatar.

Maybe they're watching us? or maybe they're afk....

....i don't necessarily believe all that... I just have my moments where i start thinking random thoughts (usually to procrastinate)... It would be odd for us to prove that we're holograms... or at least it would be for me. I had some other parts to brainstorm over... but i forgot them over the duration of the day :/... maybe later

it leaves a lot of "well then why is ____ the way it is and not _____? dunno

314d1
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314d1
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Nomad

I've been toying w/ something the last few days... what if... what if we're just a giant video game? now this may account for everything... or not... i dunno. i expect a few of you to get rather teste over me throwing in an off the wall idea like this


It would have to be a pretty sadistic race to make a vidiogame have actual feelings, don't you think? Not to mention it would be far less fun. And what kind of game would that be?

maybe we just go into a cache or folder somewhere and wait to respawn... the whole hologram thing is what got me thinking. maybe the player plays "God"... or maybe there is a whole hierarchy of "Gods" that manifest from a group of people playing the game.


And maybe I am the great Clam Monkey. But that is not true.

it would account for a being that could make anything it wanted to happen happen. it would also account for the possibility of the heaven or hell thing... maybe the respective cache we get sent to is an eternal loop of unhappiness or maybe its a folder full of sunshine, rainbows, and happiness...


Your still not making any logical sense.

the big bang may have been the light(s) firing up to project us into existence...
[quote]

The Big Bang was not an actual explosion, there was no light involved...

This is a horrible, not thought out at all, insane assumption. And what of the players? Are they under control of another player, continuing on to infinity? It doesn't make since why it would be necessary or even logical to assume this. The only way you could find this even partway plausible is if you are under the influence of some form of drug. Or of course if you somehow got enough people for it to become a religion, then you would have plenty of followers, but that would be worse, wouldn't it?
Sonatavarius
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Sonatavarius
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Farmer

And maybe I am the great Clam Monkey. But that is not true.


it has been hypothesized that we are a hologram... right after someone on here showed me an old thread one of the top physicists out there (don't know his name) got on either the Colbert report or the Daily Show w/ John Stewart and started talking about some current hypothesis... and even mentioned the whole hologram thing was mentioned for a few minutes

I'm not sure how your clam monkey statement is relevant... its not similar to my post at all... I'm not making an outlandish claim... I'm just theorizing and discussing.

Your still not making any logical sense.

I'm not quite sure ur making sense friend. now... if all things originated from one location and expanded outward then I would imagine that there would have been light. if you concentrate enough matter then you get a sun... i would think that would be enough for a sun >_>... now friction between objects that are moving really fast can cause light... if something like that happened I would imagine there would be alot of friction and therefore light... if not light from some giant sun... granted those examples don't require a holographic light emitting entity... but they still argue for the presence of light.

but that would be worse, wouldn't it?


unless people just played video games more and neglected their own lives i'm not sure how things would be any different than they are now... its up to interpretation... i mean its only an attempt to rationalize a thought that's already there... which is the possibility of a God... and how such an entity could exist. I really don't think that an interpretation like this would do anything in the way of making things worse.
Sonatavarius
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Sonatavarius
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Farmer

excuse my derp in the first paragraph

314d1
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314d1
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Nomad

it has been hypothesized that we are a hologram... right after someone on here showed me an old thread one of the top physicists out there (don't know his name) got on either the Colbert report or the Daily Show w/ John Stewart and started talking about some current hypothesis... and even mentioned the whole hologram thing was mentioned for a few minutes


Then it sounds like this "great physicists" has been dabbling in chemistry, if you know what I mean. Could you please give the actual speech instead of "Someone important once agreed with me!".

I'm not sure how your clam monkey statement is relevant... its not similar to my post at all... I'm not making an outlandish claim... I'm just theorizing and discussing.


Yes, actually, you are making an outlandish claim. You stated something that you made up from the top of your head and presented it as if it had a chance of actually being real, without any bases on evidence or logic. Just like me saying "I am the Great Clam Monkey!". It could be correct, but that is nearly impossible.

I'm not quite sure ur making sense friend. now... if all things originated from one location and expanded outward then I would imagine that there would have been light.


There would be light. But nothing like a computer light or a diode or anything that would be like what you are suggesting.

if you concentrate enough matter then you get a sun


...No...You get concentrated matter. That works well for the chemicals that make up the sun, but any other chemical and you would be pretty hard pressed to make a sun.

now friction between objects that are moving really fast can cause light


It causes heat, I have never known it to cause light. And may I ask friction against what? The void that the matter is replacing?

if something like that happened I would imagine there would be alot of friction and therefore light


Therefor heat, friction does not cause light...

if not light from some giant sun


More likely a singularity, nothing like a sun.

but they still argue for the presence of light


There was probably light, but not do to anything you are suggesting and not the LED that you seem to be comparing it to.

unless people just played video games more and neglected their own lives i'm not sure how things would be any different than they are now


You stated that this pantheon of players controls every bit of our lives. I am asking "Why would this be necessary? By that logic, you would need another pantheon for every pantheon!"

its up to interpretation.


No, it is not, it is the result of your day dreaming.

. i mean its only an attempt to rationalize a thought that's already there... which is the possibility of a God.


That thought in itself is incorrect, so why would making up a story to go along with it that still makes no sense? Back the the Great Clam Monkey, I could say that I became it do to intense physical training and exercise, but it still makes no since.

and how such an entity could exist


Except an entity as such could not possibly exist. All "theories" like yours have many problems, the one I have been saying the most is that those gods would need there own gods to create them if humans needed a god to create them, making an infinite line of gods.
Sonatavarius
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Sonatavarius
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Farmer

Then it sounds like this "great physicists" has been dabbling in chemistry, if you know what I mean. Could you please give the actual speech instead of "Someone important once agreed with me!".


It was Brian Greene... the String Theory guy

You stated that this pantheon of players controls every bit of our lives. I am asking "Why would this be necessary? By that logic, you would need another pantheon for every pantheon!"


first... that says nothing about a pantheon for them... it just talks about them. if you want to connect the dots and say "well if there's something for us, then there's something for them, and on and on and on... then that would be your take on things. It doesn't say that. maybe he/they just "happened" as most on this forum hypothesize for us. if they were real then maybe they just discovered a technology... or have had a technology w/ which they could create something like this... I'm not sure I know of anyone who's played a SIMS game and just sat and watched everything w/o doing something on their own.

now as for all of us being "holograms"... I'm not so sure that I emit all that much light... the whole "light bulb flaring up thing" was just me getting into the post. If we are holograms and are just a projection of matter then whether or not there were lights in the beginning is irrelevant...

friction is 2 things rubbing against each other right? pieces of metal when rubbed up against each other can spark... sparks emit light. and i'm not sure if its internal friction or what... may not even be friction... but wint-o-green life savers when smashed (via hammer or teeth) emit light... it excites electrons and they can emit light. its kinda kiddy... but its fun.

Yes, actually, you are making an outlandish claim. You stated something that you made up from the top of your head and presented it as if it had a chance of actually being real, without any bases on evidence or logic.


we don't "know" anything other than that we exist. Given what I've seen/heard on tv and other media I had the idea come to mind.... and so i tried to express it. I would think it actually more believable then most if not all religions. Is it that as far as we know its not testable? I was told once that since it couldn't be tested then there was no reason in bringing it up... are all possibilities whether believable, testable, or neither to be filtered to just the believable ones?

i had not thought of it at all prior to seeing Brian talk about it. ...even after Mage and Walker pointed me in the direction of the "we might be a hologram" thread from a while back. at that point i was like "LOLWUUUUTTTT???" ... after hearing one of the more renowned physicists of our time even toy around w/ the same issue i just started to think and "day dream" since that's what you want to call it. we could just be a hologram w/ no God(s). Forgive me for fabricating something off of the top of my head and advocating it to be real... even tho i don't remember saying it was real, but only a possibility to discuss.
314d1
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314d1
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Nomad

It was Brian Greene... the String Theory guy


Then it looks like he has been practicing chemistry. I listen to the facts, not the person. He is simply stating bar-style that it was a possibility. Or that is how it seemed to me. He uses no facts to state "this is how it is", just a bar-style conversation.

first... that says nothing about a pantheon for them... it just talks about them.


You are stating that- for some reason- it is necessary for us to be a video game. If that was the case, that necessity would spread to the players, or we would not need it in the first place making your ideas totally invalid.

if you want to connect the dots and say "well if there's something for us, then there's something for them, and on and on and on... then that would be your take on things


Actually, it does. If something is a necessity for us, such as needing a creator or needing to be a video game, than that must extend to the creator or video game player.

maybe he/they just "happened" as most on this forum hypothesize for us


So why can't we just "happen"? Why must a higher being "Just happen", when it would be much simpler just to say we "Just happened"?

if they were real then maybe they just discovered a technology... or have had a technology w/ which they could create something like this... I'm not sure I know of anyone who's played a SIMS game and just sat and watched everything w/o doing something on their own.


The difference between playing with the lives of pixels and playing with the lives of an intelligent being are extreme. When you play Sims, you are playing with pixels. Nothing you can do would cause them actual pain. However, it would be horribly sadistic to create a race for the pure sake of your enjoyment, having a universe of horrible deaths to real things.

now as for all of us being "holograms"... I'm not so sure that I emit all that much light... the whole "light bulb flaring up thing" was just me getting into the post. If we are holograms and are just a projection of matter then whether or not there were lights in the beginning is irrelevant...


I thought you said we were video game characters?

friction is 2 things rubbing against each other right?


Kind of...

pieces of metal when rubbed up against each other can spark


That is more common with clashes, not simply rubbing, but still true...

sparks emit light


Really?

Now can I ask were we get metal in a universe made completely out of gas at the moment?

Friction does not create light. Sparks do create light, but rubbing hydrogen molecules together does not create sparks. Metals are needed to spark. Friction does not cause spark alone.

we don't "know" anything other than that we exist


We observe the world, thus know. If it is observed, it is likely true. I can observe my floor and have the utmost confidence that it exists. And if we are going with your logic, the word "Probably" must be put in front of every sentence to make it probably true. The observable world is the world, and you can be sure it exists.

Given what I've seen/heard on tv and other media I had the idea come to mind.... and so i tried to express it


Which is daydreaming. Not based on factual evidence at all.

I would think it actually more believable then most if not all religions.


That is not a very incredible feat. No religion has any credibility whatsoever.

Is it that as far as we know its not testable?


When we can't test, we assume. And when we assume, we must use logic and reasoning. It doesn't fit into logic and reasoning, therefor it is probably false.

I was told once that since it couldn't be tested then there was no reason in bringing it up


And something I forgot from earlier, you stated there was a "Prayer File" correct? That file could be tested. If you prayed, and the outcome was not what you prayed for, then it is false and your entire theory is probably false. If it is true every single time, than you are probably correct. Is that the case?

are all possibilities whether believable, testable, or neither to be filtered to just the believable ones?


Quite simply yes. There are literally infinite possibilities more believable than yours. I could say the world was created when Bob the Builder yelled "CAN WE FIX IT!" really loudly, but you should, if you have any logical bone in your body, filter this out as impossible.

i had not thought of it at all prior to seeing Brian talk about it. ...even after Mage and Walker pointed me in the direction of the "we might be a hologram" thread from a while back. at that point i was like "LOLWUUUUTTTT???" ... after hearing one of the more renowned physicists of our time even toy around w/ the same issue i just started to think and "day dream" since that's what you want to call it. we could just be a hologram w/ no God(s). Forgive me for fabricating something off of the top of my head and advocating it to be real... even tho i don't remember saying it was real, but only a possibility to discuss.


Its a theory, weather you stated if it was real or not, it is meant to be questioned. Is it possible that we are all holograms? Sure. Is it likely at all? No. We could literally be anything, by that logic, but it is extremely safe to assume that the world we observe is real.
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