Forums → WEPR → Theism and Atheism
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I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please
- 4,668 Replies
WHY do you think stealing would make everyone happy?
Because the person has something he wants and thinks he can get away with stealing it.
If I believed it was the one and only truth to this world and that my eternal salvation and others depended on the knowledge inside of it? Definitely.
Let's see how many pages there are in the bible... WoW! That much? It will take me at least 10 years to memorize all that! I'll have to stay at my home not seeing any friends not telling people about God very much because I will have to pput all my time into memorixing it all. Or I could study it as much as I can and use what I have currently learned from the bible for good use instead of trying to memorize every single word in there.
Because the person has something he wants and thinks he can get away with stealing it.
And? There's been -plenty- of times I could have taken something and no one would have known it was me/that it was even taken. Did I? No. Why not? I wouldn't have gone to jail. I wouldn't have been punished in any way.
I think you're so hyper-focued on "stealing iz a SIN" and that you've been so brainwashed by your religion to think that the devil makes bad things pleasurable that you honestly think that people are going to get some warm fuzzy feeling from doing it.
Rarely are murders done for pleasure, they're done out of rage. Rarely is stealing done for pleasure, it's done out of greed or need.
It will take me at least 10 years to memorize all that!
10 years out of 80, when your entire life is God's anyways? Sounds like a fair deal.
I'll have to stay at my home not seeing any friends not telling people about God very much because I will have to pput all my time into memorixing it all.
But then after those 10 years you could preach -much- more effectively.
Or I could study it as much as I can and use what I have currently learned from the bible for good use instead of trying to memorize every single word in there.
And what if you get something wrong and lie to people because of that? Isn't that worse?
danm thats a long post. anyway... i just picked out some of the quotes and reactions on it. (about 15)
and after everything you say back i think by myself. wtf is this guy for real? or just very close minded? or wasn't the bible able to teach you logic thinking?
How do you get your morals from two different places?
how can you not? do you realy deny all reactions other people have?
didn't your parents tell you that stealing is wrong? did you realy need a book to learn that?
You: "The meaning of life is to bring entertainment to ourselves, and to savor our only life."
Me: "So why don't you steal from other people to bring yourself happiness?"
You: "Because that does other people harm."
Me: "I thought your meaning was to make yourself happy. So why don't you fulfill your meaning by stealing from people?" ..........
harming other people feels bad. and we should help eatchother to have a good time. stealing doesn't do any good.
why do you think i should steal to be happy? there are many other ways to become happy. for example: helping other people.
Why would you get life in jail? Why is stealing wrong if the meaning of life is supposed to be to make yourself happy?
realy?
there such thing as a law you know
Tell me why society made stealing wrong. Where did they get their moral basis?
because people stole from people and most people didn't liked it when it happend to them. (tadaaaa moral made: stealing = bad)
So even though slavery was doing no real harm, why was it abolished?
realy? slavery was doing no real harm?
plz. take some history lessons.
As I just explained above, it is the duty of Christians to bring people to Christ, that is our meaning.
what was the meaning of humans befor christ?
I'm afraid I can't figure out why I shouldn't kill myself if I saw that life has no meaning
so your life has no meaning at all except for spreading gods words....
i feel bad for you, the world is a wonderfull place whit lots of fun things to do.
Yes they had morals. They were given direct instruction to not eat the fruit. Adam and Eve chose to disobey direct instruction. They believed that there would be no punishment if they ate the fruit because satan lied, and said that there would be no punishment.
god is all knowing right?
so god already knew eve was going to eat the fruit.
god created everything right?
then why didn't god create the tree far far away from adam and eve. somewhere they would be unable to find it.
this way their could be no punishment. wich god would choose for because he is all loving and want us all to have a free-will.
Whatever 'Christians' participated in the crusades, were hypocrites. The Bible says 'do not murder' and they go out and murder. They are hypocrites.
the crusades were formed by the church. the knights who joined the crusades did it because the church was saying that when they fight for god that they will be forgiven from their previus sins. (and because the church could pay way more then any1 els and hired every1 that wanted to)
God doesn't want us to skip to the end, He wants us to actually put faith in Him.
didn't god want us to have a free-will? why would he demand something from us then?
Why isn't killing right all the time?
are you serious or just trolling? i mean realy?
you think killing is only wrong because it is writen in a book?
thats realy ignorand. sorry.
The punishment for sin is death.
oh yea your totaly right. thats why there are no murders in jail. they all died after sin. and what happend to "repending your sins"?
if sin = death, then people don't have time to repend.
Hell is where you go if you reject God and devote your life to evil.
what about me?
i reject god, but do good for the people around me.
i cannot devote my life to evil/satan because i do not believe in that either.
He can forgive anyone's sins if they ask Him.
wasn't all our sins forgiven already?
you know by jesus dieing on the cross for our sins and all that.
Why does society need to exist?
you asked this like 6 times in that 1 post.
i'm a atheist and i would not mind if humanity would die out.
i do not agree whit agrument that humans need to reproduce and keep the spieces alive.
however this does not give me the reason to start killing people.
10 years out of 80, when your entire life is God's anyways? Sounds like a fair dea.
And what if you get something wrong and lie to people because of that? Isn't that worse?
First of all just because i'm memorizing it doesn't mean I am really studying the bible. I had to learn it the hard way. I have to understand every meaning in the bible if you put all that together it would probably take thirty years. No I will show what I have learned and not wait that long.
First of all just because i'm memorizing it doesn't mean I am really studying the bible.
Does it matter? If it's the truth the it's the truth. If God made his book in such a retarded way that it takes 30 years to pick out the right meanings, he didn't do a very good job now did he?
Would you like to respond to my previous post on how stealing/murder aren't done for pleasure very often?
If I believed that we were all pointless piles of chemicals, as you do, then I would do whatever the heck I pleased because I would believe that nothing mattered.
Then you'd be one of mainly two types of very stupid atheists, one that lacks empathy. The other one are the ones who really think there is absolutely no meaning to life and kill/harm themselves (those who don't understand the small yet capital nuance between objective and subjective).
You know, being atheist doesn't mean you're so weak that you follow all your drives without thinking (which is what you seem to think). Being atheist just means that you live your life the way you seem fit. And this 'way' is very individual, and does rarely include thieving or raping.
You know, there's that saying, Carpe Diem. It tells you to enjoy your life. It does not mention not harming others, because that's common sense. You really seem to think we don't have that common sense.
And I don't want any "We give our own lives meaning."
Why's that?
This was answered. You aren't happy when you end up in jail. Also, ever heard of empathy?
I would feel guilty and disgusted with myself if I stole. Helping people is one of the most fulfilling things I find myself doing.
Your meaning of life is to be happy -- sure, because you can do things that are right / just and be happy, even if you have less to yourself than others.
Your meaning does not equate to your duty, and that duty is to others in terms of not harming them in any unreasonable way, shape or form.
Being happy doesn't mean committing every crime imaginable Afterburner. Get that through your head.
He's prickling the "Human urges equate to what is morally acceptable" ideology.
No. People can change what they perceive as correct as I would imagine all philosophers have. Your definition of what makes someone happy is likely for them to take what they want -- but no, people are more intelligent than that.
It's even natural for us to you know, co-exist. The idea of theft is more or less based on the fact that our society developed such a strong idea of having possessions in the first place, I would imagine.
This was answered. It's instinct. Why do birds reproduce? Why does anything? Why don't they kill each other? Instinct.
Not everything is free will ^^
Because nobody wanted what they considered "theirs" to be taken and thus the easiest way was to say no one could take what wasn't theirs.
Try explaining why we need logic and reason.
What do you need to explain why we need logic and reason?
You see how that works? You need what you are trying to explain in order to explain it -- everyone has a logical sense of what they're doing and the simple empathizing of "Would I appreciate this being taken from me?" is something that drives that law being present.
Slavery was doing, "no real harm?" Are you kidding me?
Can we enslave the guy who just said that? I'd love to see his views on it then. Sure, I'm not one who follows the idea of experience weighing more than logic and reason but. . . his arguments have been infallible when it comes to being stupid.
Even taking YEC seriously, this would still have been 4000 years that it took for him to "save us" and even then in a barbaric sacrifice.
You know. Then people who still follow him decide to kill others who don't believe the same (The Crusades card, as I like to use). The omnipotent God, even though it would've been effortless, did not speak against it. Would he support that kind of war?
He would be far from worthy of worship if he did.
I genetically engineer a new species of intelligent fish. I tell them that they have free will and that they can do what they want. I then turn around and punish them when they don't worship me.
lol.
Pretty much the same thing. You've 'all-power' over them in an easy sense.
because you are my friend.
That means nothing.
"Because I said"
"Because I'm *insert mother, parent, guardian, friend, relative, etc* here"
All mean nothing.
How many times do we have to say something before you actually get it through your head?
Every "oint" he's made seems to be easily countered. . . I'm not sure he's even thinking for himself at this point. With that in mind, he can't develop his own meaning?
Quite a stretched out theory, but hey -- it's possible. I guess that's what worries me.
But yes, really. Think for yourself dude. -.-
WHY do you think stealing would make everyone happy?
"Taking what you want" ideology. It makes sense on a brainless level, but knowing the consequences that you can't argue are wrong easily weigh you out of it. If you have some integrity, then it's even easier as stealing would not be pleasurable at all.
From a practical point of view, because every murder is -2 productive members of society, the victim and the murderer. The victim is dead, the murderer in jail.
I'll just throw this out there.
Euthanasia of a paralyzed patient -- should the person have the right to die and should the "murderer" be punished ? Of course, the patient wants to die in this circumstance.
I've already my own view on this but I'd appreciate to know others'.
Jesus says the laws which came before him still stand, and some of those laws which come before are stoning for myriads of reasons. So Jesus endorses stoning.
I think that's sufficient.
Although, for the sake of providing Bible verses and letting me use them in R.E class, any chance you can conjure up those lines? xD
I'll even add a please if it makes you feel better :>
If I believed it was the one and only truth to this world and that my eternal salvation and others depended on the knowledge inside of it? Definitely.
Or if you was Kim Peek, who memorized 12,000 books xD
He remembered 98% of everything he knew by the way. Photographic memory at its fullest, I guess.
I would find a better way to spread something I enjoyed though, as opposed to memory.
Are you really so arrogant to think that just because someone believes suicide is wrong that means they would never do it?
It's quite hypocritical. He seems to think people are brainless selfish muppets who want everything they can get, whether it's right or wrong and yet he doesn't question the integrity of your average person (whom I consider idiotic, half the time) when it comes to suicide.
Christians commit suicide -more- than most because there's more Christians.
People's beliefs on some things -- especially suicide (as you're dead, and then you'll no longer care) doesn't prevent them all the time. Rarely do people have the mental strength to make sure they do the right thing and rarely people have the fortitude to look at things in a right or wrong perspective in the first place. Why? It often involves them, and trying to do something like that when it's literally saying "Was I in the wrong and do I need to go apologize or was I right in *********?"
And according to you we're all sinners anyways. So why don't you just go around carrying out God's will?
Well, according to the Bible if I'm right, no one knows God's will? You know, because he's all mystical like that.
But yeah, us all being sinners is utter crap. Just check MageGrayWolf's profile page -- sinning is only what a believer can do.
Logic and reason will show that that is a valid statement. Think about it.
I'm just making sure you get the point, even though it really shouldn't need to be the case being as Kasic made a very nice "TL;DR" for what is now probably just both ours and his posts.
Bottom line: mention is not equal proof.
5) MENTION IS NOT EQUAL PROOF. :>
Because the person has something he wants and thinks he can get away with stealing it.
"Haha, I can steal this bottle of coke and because I can do that when you can do nothing about it I feel so happy inside."
"Oh wait. I'm actually just taking something I don't need from another guy, because I'm a selfish twat."
I barely think stealing is even NATURAL in human society. As I've said -- it's likely the developed idea of possessions that make people's theft seem so bad -- it is bad, sure. But I wouldn't think a tribe cared much for the taking of one's eating apparatus or rags before they went out for hunting.
Unless of course, that guy is the one who always rips those rags because he uses the stupidest branches as a defense weapon.
Or I could study it as much as I can and use what I have currently learned from the bible for good use instead of trying to memorize every single word in there.
Yeah. That's genuinely the case. If so, why not just provide the points in the forms of the points and the reasons why? Instead of having literally unbelievable fables in there that can only provide something more than what I just suggested -- that is entertainment.
So tell me. Why is the Bible written as if it would be good for entertainment? I'll do it for you -- it's different texts stitched together.
- H
I am going to say something that is going to shock you: Ethics and morality existed before Christianity.
As a matter of fact this high and mighty attitude -even- denies moral equality to other religions. You make it sound like every non-Christian (regardless of belief) is a murderous, thieving, lying, cheating psychopath. Frankly, I find it quite disturbing and offending.
On another age=pzuckerman_26_5">note: Nearly every nation with high levels of "organic atheism" is a veritable model of societal health. [...] The fact is that extremely secular nations such as Japan and Sweden are much safer, cleaner, healthier, better educated, and more humane when compared to the United States, despite the latter's exceptionally strong levels of theism.
or wasn't the bible able to teach you logic thinking?
It pretty much requires faith so. . . probably the opposite.
why do you think i should steal to be happy? there are many other ways to become happy. for example: helping other people.
I can very easily vouch for this as I've already done. Hell -- I'd say that helping people when you're angry can be the most soothing thing for you sometimes.
because people stole from people and most people didn't liked it when it happend to them. (tadaaaa moral made: stealing = bad)
I would say that the thieves couldn't assert a proper reason in the first place either. I mean, in a lot of circumstances I'd think that sometimes others would understand but still be cross with the taking without permission.
what was the meaning of humans befor christ?
Apparently to steal. xD
i feel bad for you, the world is a wonderfull place whit lots of fun things to do.
Quite easily. It's full with a lot of bad things too, but chances are you can't even see the majority of them. Really now, just relax and absorb the silence in the air when you go out into a state of solitude, some time. It's something you rarely get (utter silence? Not necessarily, something close though) and you'd be surprised how nice it can be just to have some time to yourself like that.
They believed that there would be no punishment if they ate the fruit because satan lied, and said that there would be no punishment.
And hey bro. Why was there punishment? There should've been a good reason for the apple to be there, but from my understanding it wasn't Pandora's Box, it was the ACT of disobedience that caused sin to flood every human and make them rampaging stealing machines.
the crusades were formed by the church. the knights who joined the crusades did it because the church was saying that when they fight for god that they will be forgiven from their previus sins. (and because the church could pay way more then any1 els and hired every1 that wanted to)
Yeah. And there's plenty of contradictions in the Bible -- it's almost as if any side you take on a matter you're hypocritical somehow. Then please bare in mind that you know, God didn't say anything about it, he got his Church-puppets to do the killing for him.
didn't god want us to have a free-will? why would he demand something from us then?
The only viable reason, that is incredibly stupid, is "Because he's testing us". Haha.
thats realy ignorand. sorry.
Sorry for? I think the guy is actually just trolling at this point. . . unless he is that far gone.
if sin = death, then people don't have time to repend.
So they developed this thing called Purgatory, right? xD
i reject god, but do good for the people around me.
i cannot devote my life to evil/satan because i do not believe in that either.
He said "and", and you're not doing both. If I was a coward I'd say that you're doing yourself a service, but I don't believe in Pascal's Wager or bowing to the threat of eternal blood and anguish.
wasn't all our sins forgiven already?
you know by jesus dieing on the cross for our sins and all that.
I thought it was that he "Died for our sins" -- and those made now we can repent for, apparently.
Whatever though, it's all impertinent compared to the fact that it's unproven.
however this does not give me the reason to start killing people.
When it comes to nature, and things are there -- naturally -- it tends to need to be the question of "Why not?" as opposed to the more logical "Why?". Why not have humans? Yeah, some of them are terribad and should get put down -- they do. Others cause damage -- they're made to heal it. Not everything with humans is correct (although I can't say that about everyone. . . I'm not going to generalize like that even though the likeliness is minimal) but that's something that can be resolved in less violent and more productive ways.
Productive. Yes. To us. But you take us out of the picture -- and there's no perception aside from animals. Sure it can help them, but humans are the #1 of the competition. They carry their weak (paralyzed people, others with disabilities), strengthen others (best conditions for training for boxers, etc), maintain contestants (keeping in other species) and even gain from that (plant research for medicinal reasons, and more) and have the power to eliminate the competition entirely if need be. Of course we've kind of finished a few contestants in this ruthless and unfair competition but that's more or less the cycle, and efforts are made to prevent it.
I have to understand every meaning in the bible if you put all that together it would probably take thirty years.
If I tried and develop a proper view on everything it would take me easily more than I could possibly live.
The idea is to be capable of generating a correct solution by the skills I already have.
Would you like to respond to my previous post on how stealing/murder aren't done for pleasure very often?
Please :>
If God made his book in such a retarded way that it takes 30 years to pick out the right meanings, he didn't do a very good job now did he?
Suggestion has been made. I like how something as simple as this is actually a flaw of God anyway though lol.
You know, being atheist doesn't mean you're so weak that you follow all your drives without thinking
The definition is the lack of belief in deities. This means people need to find their own way and their body does influence them but I'd say environmental influences actually chase a lot of things out in the first place. Then you just need to consider an actual ethical code.
Carpe Diem
Is that Latin?
I am going to say something that is going to shock you: Ethics and morality existed before Christianity.
No wai.
and offending.
Don't take it personally bro.
despite the latter's exceptionally strong levels of theism.
Too bad I did my R.E exam and had to talk about secular nations etc, and did NOT read this before that.
Oh well. It's a mock. xD
- H
Why does society need to exist?
Okay, here. First of all, I don't care what you believe, we're assuming evolution is true because we're looking at this through an atheist perspective. Every specie on earth's soul purpose in life is to survive. This all started with the first cell, which didn't "choose" to survive, it had no brain and therefor no thoughts. It survived because it reproduced and had children, not because it chose to reproduce and have children. The want to survive and reproduce has existed even before brains have. Brains came into evolution to help survival, so a brain wants to survive. As the brain developed, organisms realized that living in groups helped survival. They also realized that living in these groups was only possible under certain rules, such as no killing, stealing, ect. This is how civilization started, and society came with it. What we call morals are these things that were essential for civilizations and society to exist.
Long story short, due to evolution, brains were made to help survival, and therefor want to survive.
Now you can go and pull a lot of things i didn't say out of this like you tend to.
This was answered. We get them from -multiple- places.
You missed my other question which was: What if those multiple places' morals contradict each other? What if one place says murder is right, and the other say murder is wrong?
This was answered. It's individual.
You just tried to fill a leaking hole with water. I was asking specifically, what do YOU believe that life's meaning is.
This was answered. You aren't happy when you end up in jail.
Try this:
Me: "Why do you end up in jail for stealing?"
You: "Because stealing is wrong."
Me: "Why is stealing wrong?"
You: "Because society says so."
Me: "Why does society say it's wrong?"
You: "Because it harms others."
Me: "But you should be able to steal because it makes you happy when you get things."
You: "I'm not happy when I'm thrown in jail."
Now just repeat this over and over and over... Now I'd appreciate if you'd give me real answers.
Parts one and two were already answered. Instinct/individual.
What do you believe that the meaning of life is?
This was answered. It's instinct. Why do birds reproduce? Why does anything? Why don't they kill each other? Instinct.
Wrongamundo. Instinct is what tells us to survive. But why is our instinct to survive and reproduce?
Because nobody wanted what they considered "theirs" to be taken and thus the easiest way was to say no one could take what wasn't theirs.
Refer to the loop conversation above ^
Really?
REALLY?
Slavery was doing, "no real harm?" Are you kidding me?
Exactly. I am kidding. Slavery was wrong because, by Christian morals, it is wrong to treat people like that. But you don't believe the Bible, so why is slavery wrong in your eyes?
I genetically engineer a new species of intelligent fish. I tell them that they have free will and that they can do what they want. I then turn around and punish them when they don't worship me.
God punishes because we are sinned against Him. He doesn't punish us because we have free will.
-Beacause- -It- -DOES- -HAVE- -MEANING-
What is that meaning for you? I want to know what you believe your purpose is. I don't want to know what all atheists think their purposes are. I want to know what you think YOUR meaning is.
If they contradict, then I go with my personal judgement.
Fail. Fail. Failfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfail. Try this:
Me: "What if the morals of society and your personal morals contradict?"
You: "I go with my personal judgement."
Me: "So your morals are: 'I believe the meaning of life is to seek entertainment. So I will steal money from people so I can buy things that can entertain me.'"
You: "No, because stealing will get me thrown in jail."
Me: "So you go by societies morals and not your own? I thought you just said you go by your personal judgement." .........
You are just confused.
WHY do you think stealing would make everyone happy?
Because they get what they want. Like this. I want their money because money will make me happy. They won't give me their money. I will take money. When money is mine, I will be happy. There.
because every murder is -2 productive members of society,
Productive members doing what?
the murderer in jail...because of the pain it causes others.
Why should it cause pain to others if a walking bag of meat collapses to death?
Jesus says the laws which came before him still stand,
Not "before" but "from". The laws from Him still stand. If you tell me where a Bible verse can be found where Jesus endorses stoning, I will gladly read it.
If I believed it was the one and only truth to this world and that my eternal salvation and others depended on the knowledge inside of it? Definitely.
Look at your computer. Do you know every single detail of how it works? No. But you have a basic idea of what it does and basically works. But you don't necessarily need to know each and every byte of information that it contains.
Are you really so arrogant to think that just because someone believes suicide is wrong that means they would never do it? Christians commit suicide -more- than most because there's more Christians.
One who takes his own life clearly missed out on a big part of God's love and should be considered a hypocrite. God doesn't want us to commit suicide, so if a Christian does, then they missed the big picture.
So why don't you just go around carrying out God's will?
If by "carrying out God's will" you mean bringing others to Christ, then yes, I am carrying out His will. If by "carrying out God's will" you mean bringing death to people because that's their punishment, then you're wrong. By death, I meant spiritual death. Because we sin, we earn ourselves one-way passes to hell. God's will is for us to confess that we are sinners and that we come to know Him.
1) WE DO NOT THINK THAT LIFE IS MEANINGLESS.
What do you, personally, believe to be YOUR meaning? As an individual, tell me what you believe your meaning is. And by "you" and "your" I don't mean "all atheists" because if I meant all atheists, you would just say, "It differs from person to person."
WHY DO YOU THINK THAT RAPING/PILLAGING/STEALING WOULD GIVE EVERYONE SO MUCH PLEASURE?
Dude. Think. Why else do people r-ape, pillage, and steal? Do they do it so they can get thrown in jail?
3) WE GET OUR VALUES/MORALS FROM MULTIPLE SOURCES.
And when they contradict? You go with your personal judgement? So shouldn't that be your only source of morals?
4) IT IS INSTINCT TO REPRODUCE/KEEP THE SPECIES ALIVE.
Why is out instinct to survive?
-
how can you not? do you realy deny all reactions other people have?
What reactions? Give me an example.
stealing doesn't do any good.
Stealing makes yourself happy, therefore, if everyone steals, everyone will be happy.
there are many other ways to become happy. for example: helping other people.
Me: "Why is helping each other 'good'?"
You: "Because helping each other helps us to survive."
Me: "Why do we need to survive?"
You: "Because it's our instinct."
Me: "Why is it your instinct?" ..... You have yet to provide me with a decent answer for this question.
there such thing as a law you know
Why is stealing against the law if it makes you happy when you steal?
because people stole from people and most people didn't liked it when it happend to them. (tadaaaa moral made: stealing = bad)
You can just steal right back from them to make it even, right? So why make a moral/law against stealing?
realy? slavery was doing no real harm?
plz. take some history lessons.
I provided the following answer above ^: Slavery was wrong because, by Christian morals, it is wrong to treat people like that. But you don't believe the Bible, so why is slavery wrong in your eyes?
what was the meaning of humans befor christ?
Like I said, I'm not an expert Bible scholar... But I believe you had to sacrifice certain animals to receive forgiveness. But along with that, they also had to obey God's commands, which the Israelites sure didn't do a very good job of...
so your life has no meaning at all except for spreading gods words....
i feel bad for you, the world is a wonderfull place whit lots of fun things to do.
And one day, all the fun will be over, and we will die. Fun is not the meaning of life. If it were then follow this logic: They have lots of money. I want to have fun. I can have fun with lots of money. I will take their money so I can have fun. So why isn't stealing 'right' if we're going to use the money to have fun?
god is all knowing right?
so god already knew eve was going to eat the fruit.
Well you finally got something right. But Eve did not know that God knew the choice that she was going to make. Since Eve didn't know the outcome that God knew, it was her (and Adam's) choice to send all of mankind into sin. But free will and predetermination is a discussion for another thread, or time.
god created everything right?
then why didn't god create the tree far far away from adam and eve. somewhere they would be unable to find it.
Then they wouldn't really have a choice if He made the tree unreachable.
didn't god want us to have a free-will? why would he demand something from us then?
Yes. And He doesn't demand our salvation, He gives us the choice of it.
are you serious or just trolling? i mean realy?
you think killing is only wrong because it is writen in a book?
thats realy ignorand. sorry.
I'm not trolling, I just would like to know why YOU think killing is wrong. Try this:
Me: "Why do you think killing is wrong?"
You: "Because it hinders the survival of humans."
Me: "Why do humans need to survive?"
You: "It's our instinct."
Me: "Why is it our instinct to survive? What are we supposed to achieve by surviving?" ..... You have yet to supply me with a sufficient answer.
oh yea your totaly right. thats why there are no murders in jail. they all died after sin. and what happend to "repending your sins"?
if sin = death, then people don't have time to repend.
I don't think you were entirely clear on your point but... I know that I don't follow your logic when you say "if sin = death, then people don't have time to repend." Because we do, indeed, have time to repenT.
what about me?
i reject god, but do good for the people around me.
i cannot devote my life to evil/satan because i do not believe in that either.
It doesn't matter how much good you do. Without accepting that you are a sinner and asking God for forgiveness, you will not go to heaven. You can't check off boxes of do's and don'ts to get to heaven. But at they same time, you can't have only belief either. I believe in James chapter 4 it says that "faith without deeds, is dead."
wasn't all our sins forgiven already?
you know by jesus dieing on the cross for our sins and all that.
He wants to forgive you, since you deny His very existence, you won't be forgiven.
you asked this like 6 times in that 1 post.
Because I was looking for an answer which you previously failed to give me.
i'm a atheist and i would not mind if humanity would die out.
i do not agree whit agrument that humans need to reproduce and keep the spieces alive.
however this does not give me the reason to start killing people.
Why don't you kill people? To you, they're all just (this is like the tenth time I've said this) bags of chemicals that can talk. What difference does it make whether they are alive or not?
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I just spent 2 and a half hours on that post. I'm afraid I'll have to get to Highfire's responses later.
The Hamurabi code is an example of what Goumas said. It existed before christianity, and has plenty in it about stealing, killing, ect.
Exactly. I am kidding. Slavery was wrong because, by Christian morals, it is wrong to treat people like that. But you don't believe the Bible, so why is slavery wrong in your eyes?
If slavery was wrong by Christian eyes, the bible would have said not to do it. It didn't say not to do it. It didn't say to do it, but it gave laws how to do it, not to mention how common it was that people in it did it. So please tell me where the bible says it is wrong.
I just spent 2 and a half hours on that post. I'm afraid I'll have to get to Highfire's responses later.
And mine.
You missed my other question which was: What if those multiple places' morals contradict each other? What if one place says murder is right, and the other say murder is wrong?
You don't get it - it's an interaction of many sources that form your morals; sure some things may contradict themselves, but it's not like we get several sets of morals from several places, it's we adapt our morals on those sources and if it contradicts, we try to find out which is right.
NOTE: It is mainly not an conscious process, so when I say 'we get' or 'we try', it's not an active conscious action.
Wrongamundo. Instinct is what tells us to survive. But why is our instinct to survive and reproduce?
Because it's the way things work. If it was not so, there would be no life. No other reason is needed, basically; there can be, but don't have to.
Exactly. I am kidding. Slavery was wrong because, by Christian morals, it is wrong to treat people like that. But you don't believe the Bible, so why is slavery wrong in your eyes?
Are you really gonna ask about every little thing that is not in the bible? goumas said it, morals and society were there before christianity, so in fact you should be the one to answer all your 'why' questions.
God punishes because we are sinned against Him. He doesn't punish us because we have free will.
Nitpicker... if the fish does not worship Kasic, the fish sinned, and thus gets punished. Happy now?
Because they get what they want. Like this. I want their money because money will make me happy. They won't give me their money. I will take money. When money is mine, I will be happy. There.
This may work for you, but not for us. Stealing is not somethig that makes us happy.
Plus, we are not bound to do stuff that makes us happy. Even if stealing would make us happy, it'd be a short term happiness. You can also strife for long-term happiness, which doesn't necessarily include a lot of short-term happiness.
Anyway I still think you're nitpicking a lot.
And one day, all the fun will be over, and we will die. Fun is not the meaning of life. If it were then follow this logic: They have lots of money. I want to have fun. I can have fun with lots of money. I will take their money so I can have fun. So why isn't stealing 'right' if we're going to use the money to have fun?
Because you're a criminal held back only by the bible. And you totally lack empathy.
And why not have some fun while it lasts, be there an afterlife or not? How crule must your belief be to make you think life is not fun?
I'm not trolling, I just would like to know why YOU think killing is wrong.
Killing is wrong in my eyes, because I generally see life as something valuable. I don't care if it hinders reproduction or not; this is unimportant.
It doesn't matter how much good you do.
.. this religion is sick..
He wants to forgive you, since you deny His very existence, you won't be forgiven.
What if I don't deny him because I don't believe in him in the first place? It's his fault if I haven't been granted belief after all, assuming he exists.
Why don't you kill people? To you, they're all just (this is like the tenth time I've said this) bags of chemicals that can talk. What difference does it make whether they are alive or not?
To you, killing makes a big difference in the great scheme of things. To me, it doesn't; however it makes a big difference to me. Because in my own pathetic subjective mind, I value life as important and wouldn't dream of randomly killing someone. Also I'm not stupid and I know it would have big psychological repercussions.
Happy now?
Exactly. I am kidding. Slavery was wrong because, by Christian morals, it is wrong to treat people like that. But you don't believe the Bible, so why is slavery wrong in your eyes?
Your own bible disagrees with you.
You are just confused.
You seem to be the only one who doesn't understand.
Because they get what they want. Like this. I want their money because money will make me happy. They won't give me their money. I will take money. When money is mine, I will be happy. There.
So if you weren't afraid of a book you would steal?
Why should it cause pain to others if a walking bag of meat collapses to death?
This should be pretty obvious to anyone with friends or family.
Not "before" but "from". The laws from Him still stand. If you tell me where a Bible verse can be found where Jesus endorses stoning, I will gladly read it.
When Jesus says the laws written before he came still stand then he approves of them. Those laws include stoning.
Look at your computer. Do you know every single detail of how it works? No. But you have a basic idea of what it does and basically works. But you don't necessarily need to know each and every byte of information that it contains.
The bible is supposed to be an all important book that explains everything, a computer is a means of entertainment/work.
Dude. Think. Why else do people r-ape, pillage, and steal? Do they do it so they can get thrown in jail?
There are a number of reasons, especially for stealing.
Stealing makes yourself happy, therefore, if everyone steals, everyone will be happy.
What is this, I don't even...
But I believe you had to sacrifice certain animals to receive forgiveness.
Animal sacrifices weren't always for forgiveness, it was often used to make the gods happy to give them luck in any number of different thing.
Fun is not the meaning of life.
Why?
Since Eve didn't know the outcome that God knew, it was her (and Adam's) choice to send all of mankind into sin.
Except if God already knew it was going to happen it wasn't Eve or Adam's choice.
What if those multiple places' morals contradict each other? What if one place says murder is right, and the other say murder is wrong?
I could ask you the same thing about the Bible, y'know, the supposedly infallible and perfect word of God - that advocates the death penalty for a number of offences but tells people not to kill and to love thy neighbour. Back to the question you asked though, different morals are gained from different sources, just as many Christians choose the bits of the Bible from which they want to draw their morals.
what do YOU believe that life's meaning is.
I know that this wasn't directed at me but... I like to keep the whole 'meaning of life' thing as something that evolves and changes depending upon the specific factors acting upon me at the time.
Me: "Why do you end up in jail for stealing?"
You: "Because stealing is wrong."
Me: "Why is stealing wrong?"
You: "Because society says so."
Me: "Why does society say it's wrong?"
You: "Because it harms others."
Me: "But you should be able to steal because it makes you happy when you get things."
You: "I'm not happy when I'm thrown in jail."
You assume that there's no difference between getting things (the acquiring of material possessions through legitimate means) and stealing things (illegitimately taking the possessions of others and claiming them as your own) - can you back up this assertion?
Wrongamundo. Instinct is what tells us to survive. But why is our instinct to survive and reproduce?
Because if we lacked those basic instincts then we'd end up killing ourselves out of stupidity and a lack of common sense or becoming completely Asexual and thus not continuing the species - which isn't really something that would, from a biological standpoint, do us any good.
Exactly. I am kidding. Slavery was wrong because, by Christian morals, it is wrong to treat people like that. But you don't believe the Bible, so why is slavery wrong in your eyes?
You do realize that the Bible gave a guide on how to properly treat slaves but didn't actually condemn slave-keeping all that much? Anyway, in my eyes, slavery is wrong as it adversely impacts upon the group/pack dynamic of the human hierachy by forcibly removing the equality of one person or a set of persons and stripping them of their freedom for the sake of another persons gain.
God punishes because we are sinned against Him. He doesn't punish us because we have free will.
Okay, so God gave us free will, but if we use the free will He gave us to do something that God doesn't like... then we get punished. Do you not see how that's punishing us for having/using free will?
Because they get what they want. Like this. I want their money because money will make me happy. They won't give me their money. I will take money. When money is mine, I will be happy. There.
I think you're missing the parts where "if I take this money from them then they will no longer have it, this will have a detrimental impact upon them, this will be my responsibility, I have caused harm to someone" comes into play.
Alright, that's it, I've read through the rest of your ignorant nonsense (and frankly that's what it all is) and I can't see the point in arguing with someone who won't accept (or can't understand) that all the things they're arguing have already been addressed repeatedly.
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