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thepyro222
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thepyro222
2,150 posts
Peasant

I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please

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AfterBurner0
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AfterBurner0
896 posts
Nomad

To everyone who thinks I am putting words in your mouths. I have been. However, it is your choice to spit them out or swallow them.

My post and MageGrayWolf's posts were recently deleted. So...

Dear mods,

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0804/explanation-demotivational-poster-1209100230.jpg

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

To everyone who thinks I am putting words in your mouths. I have been. However, it is your choice to spit them out or swallow them.


Since where I said it got deleted I will say it gain.

This is a strawman argument, this is a fallacy. It's not up to us to do anything with it. All you're doing is creating an illusion and have attacked that, ignoring what is actually being said.


My post and MageGrayWolf's posts were recently deleted. So...


Seeing as I was attempting to point out the flaws in your logic and methods of arguing I fail to see why that was deleted. I didn't get to see your reply so all I can say on this is, WHAT!
deathbewithyou
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deathbewithyou
534 posts
Nomad

My post and MageGrayWolf's posts were recently deleted. So...

Thats too bad that they were deleted. If you ask me I find them ineresting to read. I didn't even get to finish reading them.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

Okay since we don't seem to be getting anywhere with arguing the point just to get a fallacy thrown in our faces how about another question, This time for theists. This was one I recently heard on a video I watched.

What if faith was not required, God shows up proves his existence. However this God says Christianity is all wrong. No heaven, no hell, don't really care about any of us or what we consider is moral or not, doesn't want worship. All this God did was create the universe. Would this God still be so important to you? Could you accept a God where your religion was irrelevant? In short what's more important, God or the dogma?

If it helps to process these questions treat it as a hypothetical. I just thought it was an interesting question.

dair5
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dair5
3,371 posts
Shepherd

What if faith was not required, God shows up proves his existence. However this God says Christianity is all wrong. No heaven, no hell, don't really care about any of us or what we consider is moral or not, doesn't want worship. All this God did was create the universe. Would this God still be so important to you? Could you accept a God where your religion was irrelevant? In short what's more important, God or the dogma?


I would say God. I don't see how christianity could still be relevent at that point. Once it's been disproven, well whats the point of believing in it. It's like if you thought bears only ate honey, were proven otherwise, and you still continued to believe beares only eat honey. By that point theres not much to debate, you'd just be really stubborn.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

I'll like to see the response to my argument and see how I should "spit out NY words". Might just be the forum glitch going around though.

nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

My words* Phone sucks to type on.

nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

To everyone who thinks I am putting words in your mouths. I have been. However, it is your choice to spit them out or swallow them.


And so we have spat, and so we have shown how you argue is wrong and a diversion. And so we come back to square one where instead of properly defending your claims, we go around dancing a merry jig.


So....seeing that posts were deleted yada yada, and the arguments at hand went so far out of orbit....will someone for goodness' sake tell me, what the main line of argument is about. Merci.
AfterBurner0
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AfterBurner0
896 posts
Nomad

I thought I'd respond to MageGrayWolf's ten commandment attack. And he quoted 13 times while there are only 10 commandments.......... Well, lets get started.

So does this mean the spaghetti monster is okay since he was invented after this God? :P


God was speaking in terms of order of importance, He was not speaking chronologically. If you made a list of important things, nothing else should come before God.

This:

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:


and

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God [am] a jealous God,


this, are part of the same commandment, genius. God means that we are not to worship only the images. God says we should worship what the image represents. Not making much sense for your tiny brain? Alright, let us try an analogy: You have an Xbox. Xboxes are a lot of fun when you put in the disc and play the game on the TV. Now turn off the TV and play with the actual console. Not much fun is it? God wants us to play the game (worship Him) and not fool around with only the console (worship His "image&quot. Does that make sense? Good.

What a ******.
Anyway no contradictions.

Ezekiel 18:20
The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father.


I'm not a Bible scholar or anything, but I do know, that the "commandment" you quoted, was not a commandment.

Again seems rather petty.


If you invented something like... a cure for cancer, would you want people to just curse at you all the time? No. But God created us, so we should not curse Him and/or misuse His name.

Update, unless you need to work three jobs in a poor economy to support those half dozen or so kids you had from not using birth control. Just saying.


What is this... I don't even... .......... All I know is that God says keep the day holy and bam. We have church on Sunday.

Even if your father is an absentee father who when he is around is a drunk ******* and your mother is a useless crack *****. Yep definitely deserving of honor just because they got it on once in the back seat of a car and didn't use a condom.


Yes. You should still honor your parents.

Of course we can just ignore those times God wants you to go around killing in the very same book.


God tells us to kill people.....when?

Hey that's two for two. Wait, originally this referred to a woman who has sex with a guy other than her husband. So I guess the context here only applies to women. Also what if the guy is okay with it, not really doing any harm there.


Wrongamundo. God says "Thou" not "Women" ... Also, if the guy is a Christian, he should not be okay with it according to 1 Corinthians 7. If the dude isn't a Christian, then he won't worry about the commandment.

Also what of other cultures who have completely different social relations when it comes to family structures?


It doesn't matter about what other cultures think. There is only Christian and non-Christian. If you are non-Christian, do whatever you please or whatever the culture wants you to do. If you are a Christian in which adultery is acceptable, you should still not commit adultery because it is still against your beliefs. And the Christian's beliefs comes before (speaking in terms of importance there. I just thought I'd tell you that since you can't tell the difference.) the culture's beliefs.

What if the person is starving to death and the only way to survive is to steal? I guess they are suppose to just starve.


Sigh. Wrongamundo. Let me refer you to Matthew 6:31-34 which says: So do not worry, saying "What shall we eat?" or "What shall we drink?" or "What shall we wear?" For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore, do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its' own.
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So if you are a Christian and seek God before anything else, He will provide for you and you will have no need to steal.

I wish more Christian actually followed this one. Maybe then we wouldn't have this bs like creationism.


I have not the foggiest clue on how your logic got you from "Do not tell lies." to creationism.

Yeah it's not like we have a system like capitalism based on this or anything.


Once again, I have absolutely no idea how your logic got you from "Do not envy what other people have." To capitalism.

These morals as absolutes or as morals at all are laughable.


You
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/MageGrayWolf/multi-fail.jpg
AfterBurner0
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AfterBurner0
896 posts
Nomad

If you are a Christian in which adultery is acceptable


I meant "If you are a Christian in a culture which adultery is acceptable.
thepunisher93
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thepunisher93
1,826 posts
Nomad

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

and

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God [am] a jealous God,

Seems to me this forbids painting living things and tells not to worship them.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
8,256 posts
Regent

So if you are a Christian and seek God before anything else, He will provide for you and you will have no need to steal.

That's the reason why converted natives of a certain island ended up hanging around the mission all day doing nothing and waiting for food supplies coming by plane (true story).

Note: the natives in the island I mentioned that stayed in the rain forest and didn't convert still live happily in their villages with all they need.

Now doesn't the bible tell you to "help yourself and god will help you" somewhere?

You surely know that story, about a guy who sits on the roof of his house because of a flood. Several times, someone comes by in a raft, boat or even a helicopter once, tell him to come on board to save himself. But he refuses to come, saying 'God will save me'. The flood increases, he drowns and appears before God. He then asks, 'why didn't you help me out when I was on the roof?' And God replies, 'I sent you help several times, even a helicopter, and you didn't accept it. What did you expect?'.

So yes, if you believe in divine providence you should not worry about tomorrow, as long as you do something and don't just sit around waiting for help (doesn't need to be stealing, but sometimes there ain't no other way for certain people).
nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

I'm not a Bible scholar or anything, but I do know, that the "commandment" you quoted, was not a commandment.



Not a commandment, but a rebuttal from the Bible to the Commandment, I'm assuming. So, which to believe? The Bible? Or the Ten commandments?


You make a big fuss over Mage quoting more than the actualy number of Commandments. Does it not occur to you that he's merely splitting up points related to the Commandments and dealing with them, since lumping them rigidly under just ten lines might affect his argument? It is in no way showing a lack of credibility on his part, which you seem to be trying to divert our attentions to.

If you invented something like... a cure for cancer, would you want people to just curse at you all the time? No. But God created us, so we should not curse Him and/or misuse His name.


No I don't mind. If it helps people, that's all I would want; and if people want to curse me for no good reason, so be it. Seems to me a rather petty and thin-skin God, if He can't take some criticism or bile and expects everyone to subserviently adore him.

What is this... I don't even... .......... All I know is that God says keep the day holy and bam. We have church on Sunday.


He's saying that it's not possible to keep a Sunday for holy day when you have to work your butt off to even put food on the table. If God can't even understand that, and expects us to rigidly keep a day off for adoring him instead of trying to live, then that God is not a decent God. That make sense now?

Sigh. Wrongamundo. Let me refer you to Matthew 6:31-34 which says: So do not worry, saying "What shall we eat?" or "What shall we drink?" or "What shall we wear?" For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore, do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its' own.
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So if you are a Christian and seek God before anything else, He will provide for you and you will have no need to steal.



Hohohoho, tell that to the starving Christian children in Africa.There are an estimated 925 million starving people in the world, and a good many of them are in countries where Christianity is the majority religion.


Instead of just replying to Mage's points that you don't get his arguments, and therefore he fails, take a good long look at yourself. A discussion goes no where when one person spends half his argument just attempting to belittle the other party. And you wonder why your posts get removed. Hmmm.
deathbewithyou
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deathbewithyou
534 posts
Nomad

Hohohoho, tell that to the starving Christian children in Africa.There are an estimated 925 million starving people in the world, and a good many of them are in countries where Christianity is the majority religion.

So stealing from another person because the thief is hungry is right eeven though this other person may be suffering as well? And then this person begins to steal becausee everything was taken away from him, then it repeats until millions of people begin stealing from people and all chaos breaks loose. Sound's a little exagerated but it seems to happen a lot.

He's saying that it's not possible to keep a Sunday for holy day when you have to work your butt off to even put food on the table. If God can't even understand that, and expects us to rigidly keep a day off for adoring him instead of trying to live, then that God is not a decent God. That make sense now?

Did it say, " Thou shalt not go out and collect food for you."? No? Then why did you even mentions this? Jesus and his desciples went out to gather wheat in the feilds so that they could eat. Sooooo.... Gathering food for yourselves on a sunday is not wrong.
Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

So stealing from another person because the thief is hungry is right eeven though this other person may be suffering as well?


That isn't what he said at all.

What he said was that these children believe in God and yet they are still starving, even when the Bible says that God will provide for those faithful to him.

Did it say, " Thou shalt not go out and collect food for you."? No? Then why did you even mentions this?


Again, you completely misinterpret.

The most common perception of this commandment is that no work should be done on the Sabbath, and that it should be a time devoted to worship and rest. Aka, no working.
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