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thepyro222
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thepyro222
2,150 posts
Peasant

I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please

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deathbewithyou
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deathbewithyou
534 posts
Nomad

Good. Then please explain to me how you rationalize Leviticus, which is basically one big hate/intolerance chapter.

I'll get back to you on that once I have reaad it.

"Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp."[15:35]"

I just looked, What you just placed is completly false. There is no exodus 15:35
Freakenstein
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Freakenstein
9,504 posts
Jester

It looks like this verse is under Numbers 15:35.

Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

I just looked, What you just placed is completly false. There is no exodus 15:35


That's because it's from Numbers. (In the KJV)

Numbers 15:33-35
deathbewithyou
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deathbewithyou
534 posts
Nomad

That's because it's from Numbers. (In the KJV)

Then be more specific.
Any way it says, "And the Lord said unto moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp."

So this would be one of the earlier executing proccess. We've done executing before but in a different way. Just clearing that part up incase you would mention that.

Anyway, Yeah death if you disobeyed any of these. What I find unfortunate is that most of the people there disobeyed his commandments. Now let's see I would say he was testing how loyal they are to him, because most people wish to stick to worldly values. But, this isn't done anymore since Jesus died for us on the cross.
Now I know you are going to counter this somehow. Saying, "I think it is wrong of him to do this." and stuff like that. I would say "nope"
And you would say, "Why?"
And I would say, "Because God We're all sinners and we deserve it."
And you would say, "Well that's stupid!"
And I would say, "Well you believe it's stupid and I believe it is not. Why? because we have done so many hurtfull things, we kill, we lie, we steal, we lust, we ****, etc."
Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

Yeah death if you disobeyed any of these. What I find unfortunate is that most of the people there disobeyed his commandments.


Now, does it seem reasonable in ANY way for a LOVING God to have people die (Let's also remember we have free will!) for something so trivial as PICKING UP STICKS FOR A FIRE on the Sabbath? No. That's something you would expect of a psychotic dictator.

because we have done so many hurtfull things, we kill, we lie, we steal, we lust, we ****, etc.


All of which, according to you, God created us as.

We're being punished for acting how we act, after supposedly having free will AND being created that way. How is this fair in any way?

Going to my fish example, I create them to want shiny blue pebbles. I then say they sin against me when they want those shiny blue pebbles. I further tell them that they have free will, and then KILL them when they exert that free will to go play around with some shiny blue pebbles. This is INSANE.
deathbewithyou
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deathbewithyou
534 posts
Nomad

we ****, etc."

(Sigh) I don't know why that was blocked. I wonder if this is allowed, We sexually assault ( now I don't really mean that everyone does this I'm just pointing out what man has done)
Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

Oh, by the way, stop with the, "I say you respond" because it doesn't help your argument. That's now what we said, or what we would have said if you had actually posed that question to us. You could at least -try- to make our responses how we would say them, and not so asinine.

And you would say, "Well that's stupid!"


Saying that it's "stupid" is like saying, "Oh, the Titanic sprung a leak." You don't even scratch the surface.

On another note: Please respond to my last post before this one.
deathbewithyou
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deathbewithyou
534 posts
Nomad

Going to my fish example, I create them to want shiny blue pebbles. I then say they sin against me when they want those shiny blue pebbles. I further tell them that they have free will, and then KILL them when they exert that free will to go play around with some shiny blue pebbles. This is INSANE.

let me say that "We" decided to do it. He knew we would do it but he wouldn't make us not do it by messing with our minds.

And you will say well that's just stupd, if Iwas God I would make them all want to do good."

Well good for you. Only problem is they don't have free will. You would be making them do stuff you want them to do so they don't have the freedom to think for themselves.

And you will say, " What about te part where God said he would have A man stoned to death. That's not free will."

The man was able to choose for himself didn't he?
Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

Again,
STOP
WITH
YOU
LITERALLY
PUTTING
WORDS
IN
OUR
MOUTHS.

Now that that's out of the way...

The man was able to choose for himself didn't he?


*I point a gun at your head* You can do whatever you want, but if you don't do what I want I'll shoot you.

That's not free will. That's an overt threat. So is Hell. If we don't do what God says he has given laws to KILL said rule breakers, AND then has them eternally tortured.
Freakenstein
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Freakenstein
9,504 posts
Jester

let me say that "We" decided to do it. He knew we would do it but he wouldn't make us not do it by messing with our minds.

And you will say well that's just stupd, if Iwas God I would make them all want to do good."


Where does this whole "free will" business fit in then? Your last comment:

The man was able to choose for himself didn't he?


Claims he was able to choose to work on the Sabbath (or for argument's sake, any action that is spiritually wrong). You say man is able to choose for himself, but then say:

He knew we would do it but he wouldn't make us not do it by messing with our minds.


The double-negative says He would make us do it by messing with our minds.

Where are you going with this? You are spinning around in circles. What are you really claiming God's reasons were and why he does these things?
master565
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master565
4,104 posts
Nomad

To everyone who thinks I am putting words in your mouths. I have been. However, it is your choice to spit them out or swallow them.


So basically you're arguing your arguments? No way to win there, I'm afraid.

Btw, Thanks for not responding to any arguments made in your absence.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

I thought I'd respond to MageGrayWolf's ten commandment attack. And he quoted 13 times while there are only 10 commandments.......... Well, lets get started.


I was hoping that would have been obviously mostly tongue in cheek. Anyway I would be much more interested in your response to my hypothetical questions.

"What if faith was not required, God shows up proves his existence. However this God says Christianity is all wrong. No heaven, no hell, don't really care about any of us or what we consider is moral or not, doesn't want worship. All this God did was create the universe. Would this God still be so important to you? Could you accept a God where your religion was irrelevant? In short what's more important, God or the dogma?"

God was speaking in terms of order of importance, He was not speaking chronologically. If you made a list of important things, nothing else should come before God.


Yes I know, that one wasn't meant to be taken with any seriousness, thus the :P at the end. That just happens to be what crosses my mind when ever I read that verse. Which I suppose if I wanted to argue divine inspiration for it's interpretation I could. I of course don't see it that way as an atheist, but hey, maybe God is trying to tell me something that I am misinterpreting as just my own thoughts.
Though more to the point, that one along with about half that list is not a moral. It's just God demanding attention.

this, are part of the same commandment, genius. God means that we are not to worship only the images. God says we should worship what the image represents. Not making much sense for your tiny brain? Alright, let us try an analogy: You have an Xbox. Xboxes are a lot of fun when you put in the disc and play the game on the TV. Now turn off the TV and play with the actual console. Not much fun is it? God wants us to play the game (worship Him) and not fool around with only the console (worship His "image&quot. Does that make sense? Good.


Yes I know they are part of the same verse. For the record I'm pretty sure I'm better versed in the Bible then you. But enough with the pissing contest.

As nic pointed out I was breaking it up to better focus in on that part. Though together it really doesn't change what the verse is saying, nor my reply. We have God saying not to make idols, I posted an example of something that is pretty much a Christian idol. God further goes on to say why he doesn't want to and that why is because of jealousy. This again is not a moral and further makes God look very petty and flawed. Your example does not address this at all. Though if the "game" is to worship him I think I'll go find something good on tv to watch instead.

I'm not a Bible scholar or anything, but I do know, that the "commandment" you quoted, was not a commandment.


Never said it was. It is however a contradictory statement in the Bible to what is being said in that commandment. If what the commandment states is the one we should follow I would find this God not worthy of worship. I'm also glad our legal system does not work in such a way.

If you invented something like... a cure for cancer, would you want people to just curse at you all the time? No. But God created us, so we should not curse Him and/or misuse His name.


I wouldn't care. For a deity this is petty behavior and again not a moral.

Really if I were to behave like God it would be like me creating an ant farm then getting mad because the ants don't worship me for it.

What is this... I don't even... .......... All I know is that God says keep the day holy and bam. We have church on Sunday.


It does specify that the method of keeping the day holy is having it as a day of rest. I noticed the part of a guy being killed for picking up sticks has already been pointed out to you. As you yourself pointed out there was a part where Jesus breaks this one, thus joke "Update".

Yes. You should still honor your parents.


Such people don't deserve it. It makes this a rather poor moral to require honor unthinkingly and undeserving.

God tells us to kill people.....when?


One example is with Numbers 31, that one was all about God commanding Moses to go to war with an army.

Not to mention the times God kills. http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2010/04/drunk-with-blood-gods-killings-in-bible.html

Wrongamundo. God says "Thou" not "Women" ... Also, if the guy is a Christian, he should not be okay with it according to 1 Corinthians 7. If the dude isn't a Christian, then he won't worry about the commandment.


That's quite right, adultery did originally refer to the actions of a married woman. A woman at the time was little more than property when it came to marriage and a guy could own more then one wife.

It doesn't matter about what other cultures think. There is only Christian and non-Christian.


That's an incredibly narrow view you have there.

Sigh. Wrongamundo. Let me refer you to Matthew 6:31-34 which says: So do not worry, saying "What shall we eat?" or "What shall we drink?" or "What shall we wear?" For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore, do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its' own.


As mentioned there are plenty who very much do worship God and starve to death. It hasn't mattered how much they pray or seek God.

I have not the foggiest clue on how your logic got you from "Do not tell lies." to creationism.


The biggest proponents of creationism will often use flat out lies to support their claims.

Once again, I have absolutely no idea how your logic got you from "Do not envy what other people have." To capitalism.


Desiring what others have is a fuel for capitalism.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

So, which to believe? The Bible? Or the Ten commandments?

So, which to use? My hands? Or my fingers?


You aren't even answering the point. Mage has shown contradictions in the Bible that contradict the Commandments. Don't try to cover up with an off-track and poor analogy.

First, I'm not making that big of a fuss.


In almost every quote you gave in that post, you are.

You sound like a five-year-old who's been asked: "How would you like it if I did that* to you?" Then the five-year-old says "I wouldn't mind"
* "that" Could be any number of situations like if the kid hit his sibling or if he teased him in general.
My point is, you're just saying that you don't mind because you want to defeat the argument.


Are you me? No. Has it also occured to you, that instead of being portrayed as a five year old, my intention was to show magnanimity? I guess not. Stick to your own narrow views then.

He created the universe and everything in it. I think He has a right to make the rules.


So, you're willing to live under a virtual celestial dictatorship, where even bad mouthing him once will attract his wrath? If that's so, then the Christian dogma seems to me very much like an authoritarian regime.

Like I said before... Seek God first, and He will provide. So if you go to church and do your best to be a more perfect person and to learn more about Him, then He will still provide for you no matter how many kids or jobs you have.


So, if I pray for this and that, I'll get what I want? Tell that to the 8.1 million jobless Americans. Tell me that they're all atheists, and none of them are Christian. Then I might believe you.

Hohohoho, tell that to the starving Christian children in Africa.There are an estimated 925 million starving people in the world, and a good many of them are in countries where Christianity is the majority religion.

Okay. I guess I will tell them that if you insist.


You're still not answering the question. You claim that God will always provide when you believe in Him, yet you can't even rebut one example where He does not? That's just blatant evasion.



So it all boils down to this: You inadequately ''defend'' the steadily widening holes in the arguments that you provide, or in many cases, try to throw us off by acting all infantile and obnoxious. You never seem to directly answer our queries and arguments; in effect showing the world yet another specimen of that special breed of religious people who stick their heads into the sand and ignore everything else, even as the errors loom in your face flagrantly.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

So it all boils down to this: You inadequately ''defend'' the steadily widening holes in the arguments that you provide, or in many cases, try to throw us off by acting all infantile and obnoxious. You never seem to directly answer our queries and arguments; in effect showing the world yet another specimen of that special breed of religious people who stick their heads into the sand and ignore everything else, even as the errors loom in your face flagrantly.


I'm wondering is this quoted statement reflective of what is meant by "coming closer to God"? I ask because sadly it's far to often what I see when one does make this claim.

This isn't a jab either, it's something I honestly find disheartening.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

Claim of what Mage? 0.o

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