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thepyro222

2,150 posts

Peasant

Posted March 29, '11 5:11am UTC

I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please

I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.\r\n     I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please

4,668 Replies

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MageGrayWolf

9,462 posts

Farmer

Posted March 11, '12 8:39am UTC

Claim of what Mage? 0.o

Come closer to God, or feeling closer. Those that claim they feel they have I have often seen exhibit traits as you describe in the quoted paragraph. I wonder if this is what is meant by doing so.

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nichodemus

14,991 posts

Grand Duke

Posted March 11, '12 9:06am UTC

And you wonder why your posts get removed. Hmmm.

One of Mage's posts got removed as well............

Would also like to point out that that doesn't put you in a good light too. Doesn't justify or cover up what you're doing, which amounts to an abhorrent pissing contest.

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goumas13

4,752 posts

Grand Duke

Posted March 11, '12 11:41am UTC

The Bible is undoubtedly the basis of Christians beliefs.
1) The Bible is the Word of God.
2) It is a complete and final revelation of God.
3) It tells us how to receive salvation

Thus, the bible has to be perfect. If the Bible is imperfect, Christianity is imperfect, ergo God is imperfect.

The thing is that the Bible has many internal inconsistencies, geographical errors, astronomical errors, and historical errors. It also has contradictions, misinformation and ignorance beyond any standards of logic and reason.

Anyway, the Bible is a really poor excuse for the supposedly perfect word of god. Plus, the fact that no two individuals will ever agree on what the bible says in its entirety makes it very suspect.
Its God's word, but, nobody really knows beyond reasonal doubt what he meant there. You can just interpret the bible any way you want, to further your personal agenda and show the righteousness/ moral superiority of your beliefs.

A perfect God who reveals his perfection using an imperfect book, that's not universal, that pretty much every person understands differently, is just a frivolous notion.

The sad conclusion is that you can only have a God that is completely and utterly insane, and cannot be expected to do anything logical whatsoever. Hence, even believing in God is useless.

The Bible is undoubtedly the basis of Christians beliefs.\r\n1) The Bible is the Word of God.\r\n2) It is a complete and final revelation of God. \r\n3) It tells us how to receive salvation\r\n\r\nThus, the bible has to be perfect. If the Bible is imperfect, Christianity is imperfect, ergo God is imperfect.\r\n\r\nThe thing is that the Bible has many internal inconsistencies, geographical errors, astronomical errors, and historical errors. It also has contradictions, misinformation and ignorance beyond any standards of logic and reason.\r\n \r\nAnyway, the Bible is a really poor excuse for the supposedly perfect word of god. Plus, the fact that no two individuals will ever agree on what the bible says in its entirety makes it very suspect. \r\nIts God's word, but, nobody really knows beyond reasonal doubt what he meant there. You can just interpret the bible any way you want, to further your personal agenda and show the righteousness/ moral superiority of your beliefs. \r\n\r\nA perfect God who reveals his perfection using an imperfect book, that's not universal, that pretty much every person understands differently, is just a frivolous notion.\r\n\r\nThe sad conclusion is that you can only have a God that is completely and utterly insane, and cannot be expected to do anything logical whatsoever. Hence, even believing in God is useless.

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deathbewithyou

534 posts

Nomad

Posted March 11, '12 2:29pm UTC

One example is with Numbers 31, that one was all about God commanding Moses to go to war with an army.

Yeah and there are many more like when God sent a plagye over to egypt killing a couple well I don't know and many more. But, many have to do with a war going on or God is punishing someone ortesting someone. Yeah you guys are going to attack this one. Oh well I don't really have much time to talk rite now. Later.

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nichodemus

14,991 posts

Grand Duke

Posted March 11, '12 3:18pm UTC

Yeah and there are many more like when God sent a plagye over to egypt killing a couple well I don't know and many more. But, many have to do with a war going on or God is punishing someone ortesting someone. Yeah you guys are going to attack this one. Oh well I don't really have much time to talk rite now. Later.

It was not just a couple. Right.....so you're not even going to defend the repugnant actions of your proclaimed''magnanimous'' God?

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Kasic

5,552 posts

Jester

Posted March 15, '12 3:50pm UTC

Here's a few questions I thought of.

1) If there is a God, then why should we even worship it?

2) In response to your response to my first question, why would a God command us to worship him?

3) In response to your response to my second response, why would an all powerful all knowing all loving God create us imperfectly so that we require salvation through worship of him in the first place?

4) Finally, in response to your response to my third response, how is it not being a tyrannical dictator to create two innocent human beings, knowingly place them in reach of something which will eternally **** them and their decedents, allow something which will tempt said innocent human beings to do this act, and then punish them for it when it was God's fault all along because he supposedly created the stupid tree to begin with?

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nichodemus

14,991 posts

Grand Duke

Posted March 15, '12 3:55pm UTC

Anyway, my question too, which is linked partially to Kasic's question 3 and 4.

God ****s us all by default and we are all born sinners.
Jesus as the son of God helps us attain salvation, or we go to hell.

So question....Doesn't this sound like some dodgy family business to you?

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Bladerunner679

2,487 posts

Blacksmith

Posted March 15, '12 4:50pm UTC

Hey guys! I think I came up with the perfect compromise for this debate:

It says repeatedly in the bible that god is perfect, but it doesn't specify how in any way. it does say that he is all knowing, all seeing, and all powerful, but it doesn't show him being all loving.

My proposal is this: god can be all of the positive things I mentioned above, but I think that we can gain ground here by saying that he isn't mentally stable. He might have mental issues, and therefore christians can justify worshiping him, and we can justify not believing in him. If he is perfect, then we can cut it off at physically perfect, and not have to argue about his mental imperfections.

What are your thoughts on this proposal?

-Blade

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nichodemus

14,991 posts

Grand Duke

Posted March 15, '12 5:02pm UTC

My proposal is this: god can be all of the positive things I mentioned above, but I think that we can gain ground here by saying that he isn't mentally stable. He might have mental issues, and therefore christians can justify worshiping him, and we can justify not believing in him. If he is perfect, then we can cut it off at physically perfect, and not have to argue about his mental imperfections.

If he isn't mentally stable, he isn't perfect. The Bible states that he's perfect in all ways, so I don't think that will cut?

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gnosiphile

58 posts

Nomad

Posted March 15, '12 6:15pm UTC

... therefore christians can justify worshiping him, and we can justify not believing in him.

This isn't a matter of justification, though. It's a matter of arrogance. As an atheist, I can say that I don't know and therefore I don't know. Christians, historically and even to this day, say that they don't know and therefore god.

The surety of religion is a big draw, I've found. Honesty requires us to say that we don't know but here's our best guess. But people don't tend to want best guesses or any amount of uncertainty...which is a shame because uncertainty is the beginning of learning. Religion claims that all the secrets of the universe were revealed hundreds or thousands of years ago (depending on the flavor) and that humans haven't managed to learn much of anything since. I don't know what happened to cause the Big Bang. I wasn't there. But neither were Christians, and it's the height of arrogance to claim that since I wasn't there to observe, therefore they know what happened. (Especially since they're basing that "knowledge" on stories passed down from people who didn't understand heliocentricity.)

Part of the problem, too, is that most atheists I know, myself included, are at the root of it agnostics. We don't know, but here's our best guess. That guess could change depending on new information. But just because I can't say with absolute certainty that there are no gods does not give the opening needed to say therefore Yahweh. The most faithful people I know are completely unaffected by new discoveries. There is no amount of new knowledge that can deflect them from what they already know, but that's only because they know it not from data or anything observable, but because it's what they want to be true.

Obviously, the generalizations I've made have exceptions. That doesn't stop them from being the tallest part of the bell curve though.

[quote]... therefore christians can justify worshiping him, and we can justify not believing in him.[/quote]\r\n\r\nThis isn't a matter of justification, though.  It's a matter of arrogance.  As an atheist, I can say that I don't know and therefore I don't know.  Christians, historically and even to this day, say that they don't know and therefore god.\r\n\r\nThe surety of religion is a big draw, I've found.  Honesty requires us to say that we don't know but here's our best guess.  But people don't tend to want best guesses or any amount of uncertainty...which is a shame because uncertainty is the beginning of learning.  Religion claims that all the secrets of the universe were revealed hundreds or thousands of years ago (depending on the flavor) and that humans haven't managed to learn much of anything since.  I don't know what happened to cause the Big Bang.  I wasn't there.  But neither were Christians, and it's the height of arrogance to claim that since I wasn't there to observe, therefore they know what happened.  (Especially since they're basing that "knowledge" on stories passed down from people who didn't understand heliocentricity.)\r\n\r\nPart of the problem, too, is that most atheists I know, myself included, are at the root of it agnostics.  We don't know, but here's our best guess.  That guess could change depending on new information.  But just because I can't say with absolute certainty that there are no gods does not give the opening needed to say therefore Yahweh.  The most faithful people I know are completely unaffected by new discoveries.  There is no amount of new knowledge that can deflect them from what they already know, but that's only because they know it not from data or anything observable, but because it's what they want to be true.\r\n\r\nObviously, the generalizations I've made have exceptions.  That doesn't stop them from being the tallest part of the bell curve though.

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MageGrayWolf

9,462 posts

Farmer

Posted March 15, '12 10:57pm UTC

My proposal is this: god can be all of the positive things I mentioned above, but I think that we can gain ground here by saying that he isn't mentally stable. He might have mental issues, and therefore christians can justify worshiping him, and we can justify not believing in him.

I don't see how mental instability justifies worship. I also question mental instability (reflecting the sort of behavior this God exhibits) and an all loving nature being compatible.

If he is perfect, then we can cut it off at physically perfect, and not have to argue about his mental imperfections.

It's also generally argued that this God is not physical, this would preclude physical perfection.

But neither were Christians, and it's the height of arrogance to claim that since I wasn't there to observe, therefore they know what happened.

And often atheists are called the arrogant ones.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/MageGrayWolf/atheistjokes/atheism_motivational_poster_2.jpg

We don't know, but here's our best guess.

I would really use "guess" here in scare quotes. There really is more to it then just guessing.

The most faithful people I know are completely unaffected by new discoveries. There is no amount of new knowledge that can deflect them from what they already know, but that's only because they know it not from data or anything observable, but because it's what they want to be true.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/MageGrayWolf/atheistjokes/395219_331738816868683_100000977012909_920693_1616092232_n.jpg

"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." -Friedrich Nietzsche

[quote]My proposal is this: god can be all of the positive things I mentioned above, but I think that we can gain ground here by saying that he isn't mentally stable. He might have mental issues, and therefore christians can justify worshiping him, and we can justify not believing in him.[/quote]\r\n\r\nI don't see how mental instability justifies worship. I also question mental instability (reflecting the sort of behavior this God exhibits) and an all loving nature being compatible.\r\n\r\n[quote]If he is perfect, then we can cut it off at physically perfect, and not have to argue about his mental imperfections.[/quote]\r\n\r\nIt's also generally argued that this God is not physical, this would preclude physical perfection.\r\n\r\n[quote]But neither were Christians, and it's the height of arrogance to claim that since I wasn't there to observe, therefore they know what happened.[/quote]\r\n\r\nAnd often atheists are called the arrogant ones.\r\n\r\n[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/MageGrayWolf/atheistjokes/atheism_motivational_poster_2.jpg[/img]\r\n\r\n[quote]We don't know, but here's our best guess.[/quote]\r\n\r\nI would really use "guess" here in scare quotes. There really is more to it then just guessing.\r\n\r\n[quote]The most faithful people I know are completely unaffected by new discoveries.  There is no amount of new knowledge that can deflect them from what they already know, but that's only because they know it not from data or anything observable, but because it's what they want to be true.[/quote]\r\n\r\n[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/MageGrayWolf/atheistjokes/395219_331738816868683_100000977012909_920693_1616092232_n.jpg[/img]\r\n"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." -Friedrich Nietzsche

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Beschuss

5 posts

Peasant

Posted March 16, '12 6:00pm UTC

I was born Christian but became an atheist upon reading about things like the holocaust. I felt like if there was a god he would have been able to help those people and do something instead of sitting idly by watching his "children" die horribly. That would have to be the thing that changed me. Now I find my self learning more and more about how its not plausible that there is a god as well as seeing more examples of arrogant Christians breaking there own rules that they say were laid down by god for them by wishing death upon atheists. An example is where at groud zero and athiest group wanted a cross of debris that was recovered removed. The Christian community went crazy and wished death upon them all.

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thebluerabbit

5,340 posts

Farmer

Posted March 16, '12 7:17pm UTC

I was born Christian but became an atheist upon reading about things like the holocaust. I felt like if there was a god he would have been able to help those people and do something instead of sitting idly by watching his "children" die horribly. That would have to be the thing that changed me. Now I find my self learning more and more about how its not plausible that there is a god as well as seeing more examples of arrogant Christians breaking there own rules that they say were laid down by god for them by wishing death upon atheists. An example is where at groud zero and athiest group wanted a cross of debris that was recovered removed. The Christian community went crazy and wished death upon them all.

first, you werent born christian. you were born to a christian family/surrounding (guess). second, many people will tell you that you cant understand everything that god does and when looking for excuses you can come up with many logical things to explain the most stupid things. one could easily tell you that god doesnt meddle with our lives on earth anymore. third, thats not just the christians. pretty much any person who is an extremist in anything will do something that will hurt someone else.

[quote]I was born Christian but became an atheist upon reading about things like the holocaust. I felt like if there was a god he would have been able to help those people and do something instead of sitting idly by watching his "children" die horribly. That would have to be the thing that changed me. Now I find my self learning more and more about how its not plausible that there is a god as well as seeing more examples of arrogant Christians breaking there own rules that they say were laid down by god for them by wishing death upon atheists. An example is where at groud zero and athiest group wanted a cross of debris that was recovered removed. The Christian community went crazy and wished death upon them all.\r\n[/quote]\r\n\r\nfirst, you werent born christian. you were born to a christian family/surrounding (guess). second, many people will tell you that you cant understand everything that god does and when looking for excuses you can come up with many logical things to explain the most stupid things. one could easily tell you that god doesnt meddle with our lives on earth anymore. third, thats not just the christians. pretty much any person who is an extremist in anything will do something that will hurt someone else.

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Bladerunner679

2,487 posts

Blacksmith

Posted March 16, '12 7:40pm UTC

first, you werent born christian. you were born to a christian family/surrounding (guess). second, many people will tell you that you cant understand everything that god does and when looking for excuses you can come up with many logical things to explain the most stupid things. one could easily tell you that god doesnt meddle with our lives on earth anymore. third, thats not just the christians. pretty much any person who is an extremist in anything will do something that will hurt someone else.

it's funny how christians make excuses to laboriously maintain the faulty belief that there is a god.

1. doesn't matter, he was raised to be a christian, but he saw the truth of the world.

2.god doesn't exist, so naturally logic is the best way to get over said "stupid things". god is supposed to be all loving, and all powerful. its hard to justify him not helping if you make such ridiculous claims.

3. true, but the vast majority of said extremism comes from religious people who take their holy book way to seriously. if removal of said religions were to occur, then chances are that extremism will drop heavily.

face it, god doesn't exist, and we shouldn't be asking a non-existant figment of imagination to help us in our daily lives.

-Blade

[quote]first, you werent born christian. you were born to a christian family/surrounding (guess). second, many people will tell you that you cant understand everything that god does and when looking for excuses you can come up with many logical things to explain the most stupid things. one could easily tell you that god doesnt meddle with our lives on earth anymore. third, thats not just the christians. pretty much any person who is an extremist in anything will do something that will hurt someone else.[/quote]\r\n\r\nit's funny how christians make excuses to laboriously maintain the faulty belief that there is a god. \r\n\r\n1. doesn't matter, he was raised to be a christian, but he saw the truth of the world.\r\n\r\n2.god doesn't exist, so naturally logic is the best way to get over said "stupid things". god is supposed to be all loving, and all powerful. its hard to justify him not helping if you make such ridiculous claims.\r\n\r\n3. true, but the vast majority of said extremism comes from religious people who take their holy book way to seriously. if removal of said religions were to occur, then chances are that extremism will drop heavily.\r\n\r\nface it, god doesn't exist, and we shouldn't be asking a non-existant figment of imagination to help us in our daily lives.\r\n\r\n-Blade

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dair5

3,371 posts

Shepherd

Posted March 16, '12 10:51pm UTC

it's funny how christians make excuses to laboriously maintain the faulty belief that there is a god.

Who were you directing that to...? I thought thebluerabbit was Jewish, and the person he responded to was an atheist. So... Unless, thebluerabbit is christian. Then, my bad.

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