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thepyro222
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thepyro222
2,150 posts
Peasant

I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please

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Highfire
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Highfire
3,025 posts
Nomad

I don't believe on stupid fairy tales.

You got the point, though?

There is temptation from the devil. He is trying to make us sin. However, the Bible teaches that no temptation is too great to resist.

And yet, in the Bible -- that is, God's words -- we're all sinners. How contradictory, being as he's omniscient through all points of time.

CONGRATULATIONS.

Oh, unless of course you say that I choose to not resist, in which case I give you the middle finger as I have and will continue to do so. You've no right, or evidence suggesting people's will power is not sufficient to handle what they do not want to do -- all you've done is taking the words of an unproven deity (that is more likely from another man 2,000 years ago) as the truth.

Kasic, ready for the next merry go round ride at the Christian Circular Logic Funfair?

I don't know about you, but I am.

- H
macfan1
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macfan1
421 posts
Nomad

And yet, in the Bible -- that is, God's words -- we're all sinners. How contradictory, being as he's omniscient through all points of time.


I don't get you. Explain more.
Highfire
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Highfire
3,025 posts
Nomad

I don't get you. Explain more.

God's words say we're all sinners -- that includes people before they are born, and being as he's all knowing he would very easily have compensated for that but no, he didn't. So yeah, he's pretty much called everyone a sinner for something they haven't done.

It's not as if we could have free will, which he said we did, if everything was predetermined either. . . one way or another we're a sinner to him though.

That, and please pay reference to the rest of my post.

- H
Bladerunner679
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Bladerunner679
2,487 posts
Blacksmith

I don't get you. Explain more.


macfan, the fact that you aren't answering all of the points (and barely even commenting on the ones you respond to) doesn't hold well on your arguments. all you have been doing is regurgitating the dogmas that were shoveled down your throat, turning a blind eye to any real points of debate, and then to top it all off, you use ad hominem comments to call us ignorant fools who are stuck in a fantasy, even though we have proof ours is real.

please respond to the earlier points.

And yet, in the Bible -- that is, God's words -- we're all sinners. How contradictory, being as he's omniscient through all points of time.


what he meant was that it is rather ludicrious for some guy to give us impossibly high standards, make it so that we are inclined from birth to fail, and then punish us for not succeeding. I don't know about you, but that very fact reeks of a superiority complex.

-Blade
Bladerunner679
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Bladerunner679
2,487 posts
Blacksmith

you know what, I have a better idea. I have a question to ask this new "armor of god" clan:

the signs are everywhere, religion is but a shell of what it once was. doctrines are constantly changing in the futile hopes of gaining new converts, and the churches have lost a good chunk of the political influence that they had at their peak. religion is on the verge of getting disproven almost completely, and yet you continue to believe.

my question is: why is it that no matter what you do, people won't believe you? if your religion is true, wouldn't it be that the information that we have from science support your beliefs? wouldn't you be able to give them more than just personal revelation and rhetoric in order to convince people? why is it then that you still follow the failing system that is religion?

-Blade

thebluerabbit
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thebluerabbit
5,340 posts
Farmer

lol whats a sin anyway? christians keep saying they accepted a person to die and take their sins. really? thats considered something good? in other words, your happy someone died just so you could live (die) happily. being happy that someone has died is not a sin? completely ignoring the bad deeds you do because someone took the responsibility is good? its so sad that the more i hear from christians the less i like christianity

Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

You can run, but you can't hide-from the truth, the Bible, God, and me(and the other Christians. Where are they!).


That's great. Except, I'm not the one running around in circles screaming, "LA LA LA LA LA LA LA"

Now please respond to my points on how God is not just or loving or fair or even sane.

In other words, we'd all be in Hell. Eternal torture and all. How does that make God just?


Lmao. Great. So you admit God gave the baby the metaphorical machine gun? He should be sent to prison for child endangerment. Plus a few mental checkups...


Bull. God is all knowing. He knew that if he created man like that, man would develop this sinful nature. Thus, he created it.

If I set up the chain of dominoes, but someone else sets them off and they end up landing on the big red button which sets off a nuke, who's at fault? The 2 year old who bumped the first one, of the person who intentionally set the whole **** thing up?

According to the Bible, God is just framing us all. He made the conditions for us to sin and then punishes us for it so that he can guilt us into worshiping him to satisfy his blasted ego.


He is most certainly not. He has killed more people individually than any other person in history. He has condemned more people than are on this planet currently to eternal torture. His paradise is eternal worship towards him. Those are the actions of an insane, tyrannical, diabolical monster.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
8,256 posts
Regent

Well, if you don't believe God, then you would disbelieve Him? In which case it would seem that you've already made your decision.

What I wanted to say is, I have never even been in a position to make this kind of decision since my convictions always told me that science accurately describes the world. My convictions do not include a concept of a deity. When I was younger, I became aware, by myself, of the implications of death, namely non-existence. I have thought a lot since then about whether this is really it, or whether there could be something more (because let's be honest, I was horrified by the thought of non-existence). But nothing changed, I'm still convinced this is what really happens and I even came to terms with it.
And all this, may I add, while having to visit religion courses and go to church regularly. Not that you get the impression that I have never been in touch with religion in my youth.

This simply as an example to illustrate my lack of belief; it's as innate and honest as your belief, if not more so. Call it what you want, but do you still think I made a decision? Do you think I rejected god in any way? I don't even believe in him, how then could I reject him? How can I not accept something that is not there?

Why would god punish me for that?

But God also wanted a being in that world who could have a relationship with Him, and the only meaningful type of relationship (the voluntary kind) can only come about by free will (or semi-free will, if you want).

So he instores free will for selfish reasons although apparently he thinks he's doing us all a favor by giving us the possibility of 'true love'.
But what about the original sin? Why is this sin considered to be innate to humans in such a dramatical way that he has to make a sacrifice in order to remove it? Why can a sin be 'inherited', why is our very existence sinful?
I was also writing something questioning the need of a devil, but I can't express what I really want to say, and it might be better to avoid misunderstandings.. however I also have a problem with sin, in general. What is sin? Sin is disobeying god, it's doing something god doesn't want us to do. So sin is dependent of god, logically, it's not something objective (for the sake of this argument, I see god's opinion as subjective as well, thus not objective). So we have to repent, meaning we basically seek his pardon. But since we have free will, we can also disagree with certain parts of gods opinions, while still loving him truly. Would god accept someone that accepts him or jesus as his saviour, that believes in him, but refuses to seek pardon for some sins, for a reason as simple as divergence of opinions with god?
Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

if God were hanging over them saying, "Don't do that..don't do that..." BAM! "Bwuahaha, gotcha, sucka!"


According to you, he is. Just people don't believe he is and so don't listen.

Also, if you were not to give your money to a mugger, the mugger would kill you and take the money anyway. What does God get from killing sinners? Justice, with grief.


No, you just lose all your freedom for listening to him. Or you can disobey and get shot in the metaphorical face.

If your child threw a tantrum, you would spank him, or give him a time-out, or send him to his room.


Exactly. You wouldn't condemn him to eternal torture.

I can only point to the Bible, combined with logic.


That's like mixing water and oil. The Bible is quite illogical.

God is loving; God is holy; God is omnipotent. He is all three of those things at the same time.


Give me 3 scenarios from the Bible where God does something loving. No, killing his own kid is not loving, move past that now.

God created man to love Him and to be loved by Him.


And if we don't? If we don't love something that kills us and throws us into eternal torture? If we don't even believe he exists because he has failed to show himself in a way that we can all accept? That's not loving, that's tyranny.

In other words, God would be loving if He just let humans run wild here on Earth, since after all we're just a bunch of dumb idiots not worth bothering about


How do you get that out of what I said? The only reason we're like "this" anyways is because of how God made us. So it's his fault anyways.

1). He did not create humans imperfectly.


He obviously did. Although if you want to argue that, let's see..

God made the tree in the garden of Eden

God made man in the garden of Eden.

God is all knowing.

Therefore God knew that man would eat from the tree if he made them together.

Eating from the tree made us imperfect.

Thus, God made us imperfect because he created all parts of the situation which led to the imperfection of man and knew it would happen.

^is logic. What you keep spouting is mindless regurgitation and cognitive dissonance in that God can kill but we can't and that God is perfect when the Bible clearly shows that he's not.

In Genesis 1:26-27, God says, "Let us create man in our image, in our likeness." God is not a physical being, so "image" does not refer a physical or material representation. "Image" refers to His character, His emotions, His personality, which includes free will.


How do you know it doesn't refer to how he looks?

The Bible was written to be taken literally. The only reason it's still around is because of all this apologetics crap which just extrapolates a crazy meaning from a bunch of words that could be made to mean 1000 other things.

I read ""Let us create man in our image, in our likeness.""

1) "Us" means plural. Multiple Gods?

2) "Image" refers to physical look.

3) "Likeness" refers to physical shape.

There is nothing about free will in there.
thebluerabbit
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thebluerabbit
5,340 posts
Farmer

Those are the actions of a dictator, as a human dictator is unable to control people. If God wanted to be a dictator, wanted complete and utter control of people, He wouldn't have bothered with free will.


he would if he was sadistic XP and honestly this is the feeling that i keep getting whenever i hear excuses instead of explanations. if god really cared for our free will he firstly would show us he is here. if not that then at least he would give an explanation to what is a sin and why. i havnt seen one single christian who managed to tell me what a sin is and why it is a sin.

god throws nonbeliever to hell. in a way, its exactly like a dictator. would YOU burn people who disagree with you for eternity? i would be very disapointed if someone would tell me its a yes. but if its a no, then why are you following someone who you disagree with? probably because he is powerfull and you fear him. if someone kills people and you disagree with him how can you follow him if not of fear. love has no place in such a belief
Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

Which is a good question...

If God did not punish you for your actions/did not require you to believe in him, would you follow him still?

thebluerabbit
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thebluerabbit
5,340 posts
Farmer

i guess that people would actually be able to follow him because of love. but i wouldnt be surprised if the amount of believers would greatly decrease.

HahiHa
online
HahiHa
8,256 posts
Regent

According to the partisans of true love, christians should still follow their deity even if they're not encouraged to, and I think many would. But I'd expect a similar outcome as thebluerabbit said nonetheless.
But would they still feel the urge to evangelize, seeing as then there'd be no need to save anyone from hell (assuming that 'not punishing you/not requiring you to believe means no hell'? And how would they see the nonbelievers, how high would their esteem be?

Darktroop07
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Darktroop07
3,592 posts
Shepherd

If God did not punish you for your actions/did not require you to believe in him, would you follow him still?

People would probably follow from fear in my opinion and don't people confess so that they won't go to "hell"?
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

God in the first place didn't create man with a sinful nature. Man chose to sin and then sin came into the world.


It's often in our nature to not do what we are told. Not doing what God tells us by this description is sin. So by our nature we are sinner according to this.

God is not a monster. He is kind and loving, but he will punish evil. God is just and fair.


The punishment is monstrous and only something a monster would do. The requirement of death is being over looked in your statement as well. Such a requirement willing offered or not is sick and monstrous.

You can run, but you can't hide-from the truth, the Bible, God, and me(and the other Christians. Where are they!).


Since you again have ignored any of the questions posed you are the one running.

I don't believe on stupid fairy tales.


You believe in the Bible don't you? That's a stupid fairy tale.

I didn't say disobedience was a sin; disobedience is not a type or a kind or a category of sin. Disobedience is what sin is. But, anywho.


If disobedience is sin and one preforms disobedience then is that not a sin? Either way if it is a sin or is sin I fail to see how that alters my argument in any way.

However, considering that God is loving, holy, and omniscient, God would only tell people to do something that would be for their own good.


That seems highly assumptive and ignores my complains of the requirement of death. I fail to see how having to kill something is in the persons own good. Such a requirement could easily be made moot by an all powerful being. It would not be required to impress upon us as an all powerful being could us less severe methods and still managed to get his point across, especially one capable of controlling all of creations.
This requirement seem t only be in place to satisfy the sick desires of a monster.

God's desire to guide people in the way they should go springs from His love. The punishment for disobedience springs from His holiness.


You consider it holy to having things killed and people tortured for all eternity? I fail to see how that is holy.

Those are the actions of a dictator, as a human dictator is unable to control people. If God wanted to be a dictator, wanted complete and utter control of people, He wouldn't have bothered with free will.


I don't see why he would bother with free will if acting on it is considered wrong by this God. With or without free will this being has left the situation with no real choice. Give up your ability to think for yourself and mindlessly follow along doing what this God asks and believe he exists for reasons only a conman would use or be tortured for eternity. That's not freedom.

In Genesis 1:26-27, God says, "Let us create man in our image, in our likeness." God is not a physical being, so "image" does not refer a physical or material representation. "Image" refers to His character, His emotions, His personality, which includes free will.


I asked for a passage where it is stated, not interpreted to mean what ever the hell you want it to.

Beyond that, if God did not give humans free will, Eve's disobedience was God's fault, for God would have made her disobey, which would mean that God makes everyone disobey, for the sake of punishing them. If God were to do such a thing, then God would not be God, as God loves people and does not wish them to suffer.


Love isn't a requirement to be a God, this God has according to your holy text caused plenty of human suffering.

In that case, as God says many times in the Bible that He is loving, why would you care what God or the Bible says, as both would be liars?


Yes they would be.
You and other Christians believe it, as a result I have to deal with it, so I care. I also have interest in it from the same standpoint I take interest in other myths such as the Greek Gods and UFO conspiracies. I can give an interesting look into the human psyche.
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