<---- Christian. Was raised a Christian. God has changed my life and I feel I wouldn't be here without him. )
I woudln't be the same if I hadn't read harry potter. If I hadn't breathed those last few breaths of air I wouldn't be here. That doesn't mean I worship air.
@qwerty1011: you seem to think that there are three possibilities: atheist, agnostic, and theist. This is not the case; you basically decide between theist or atheist, and then between gnostic and agnostic (theist: belief in a god; atheist: no belief in a god. It's a yes or no question, not a how-much-do-you-believe one). I finally came to think that there are no purely undecided people; we are all either atheists or theists to some degree. The undecided are therefore agnostic theists and agnostic atheists. Can you agree with that?
How, I know some people who say we can never know if god exists or not. This makes doesn't make them theists or atheists since they aren't sure either way. How is it decided if you are an agnostic theist or atheist. It's not a dilemma as in does god exist or doesn't he. It's trilemma of does god exist or not or is it unknown and neither side has proof either side. I don't get why you think this is not true. An atheist says there is no god and theists say god does. I foyu don't know you can't be either.
Yes I'm not, I wrote names of those who did bad. There are atheists of all kinds, including those who are about to convert or honestly considering if there's some truth behind religion
And then they see that a religion who can't give any evidence to prove itself over all the others isn't worth following. And there are so many theists who did bad like Al Qaeda , the inquisition, the british empire, the spanish invading south america etc. There are so many more bad theists.
Interesting point, but it's based on a false assumption that if God is almighty He should tolerate anything and everything.
A truly just ruler listens to his subjects and passes just rulings. God has the power to do this and since he made how we are he should tolerate what we do since he made us do what we do.
Why should a miracle probe a branch of Christianity? It's enough that it proves God, and Christianity in general - at least is intended to prove this to everyone.
But if you follow the one right way why doesn't god want people to join you. Why should he prove the wrong ways.
Okay, I was merely pointing that you have not yet provided a cast-iron proof that something happened without God making a thing for it to happen. Even when it comes to a pencil falling to the floor if thrown down.
There is no reason why a God as complex as yours must exist. Why not deism or any other religion. You must prove that your God was needed until we can accept it.
So if I answer to that question, "No, I'm convinced there is none", am I a gnostic atheist then?
Your claiming to know god doesn't exist here right?
Make it simple. gnostic= know agnostic= don't know theist= believe atheist= doesn't believe
Interesting point, but it's based on a false assumption that if God is almighty He should tolerate anything and everything.
That is a quality I would expect from an all loving deity though.
Why should a miracle probe a branch of Christianity? It's enough that it proves God, and Christianity in general - at least is intended to prove this to everyone.
It really doesn't even do that. Any the various denominations within the blanket of Christianity can have widely different views and not just in minor details either.
Okay, I was merely pointing that you have not yet provided a cast-iron proof that something happened without God making a thing for it to happen. Even when it comes to a pencil falling to the floor if thrown down.
This no more needs to be proven to be the case then lightning happening without Zeus.
God has changed my life and I feel I wouldn't be here without him.
Reminds me of a video I recently watched. Testimonies
How, I know some people who say we can never know if god exists or not. This makes doesn't make them theists or atheists since they aren't sure either way. How is it decided if you are an agnostic theist or atheist. It's not a dilemma as in does god exist or doesn't he. It's trilemma of does god exist or not or is it unknown and neither side has proof either side. I don't get why you think this is not true. An atheist says there is no god and theists say god does. I foyu don't know you can't be either.
Agnosticism doesn't deal with the category of belief, only knowledge. So if your saying "I don't know" when it comes to belief then your not claiming a positive affirmation of belief, thus atheist.
This no more needs to be proven to be the case then lightning happening without Zeus.
Still, you haven't proven the latter, that the lightning happening in exactly given manner without God. Say, why Gloria Polo wasn't killed outright?
And then they see that a religion who can't give any evidence to prove itself over all the others isn't worth following.
Do you have evidence of atheism, which is comparable to what amassed since 33AD? Science counts only for the mundane, since no scientific approach is determined againbst spiritual, and God is above mundane. Also I'm not aware of many miracles that happened, I just gave you the most remarkable examples.
That is a quality I would expect from an all loving deity though.
You miss one part of what is love. Love is also to help separate good from evil, and showing what's evil. Love is also correcting one's mistakes for the general good of everyone, and helping those who made them to not continue. You want God to allow you doing anything, including evil, and not interfere or get disappointed. But since God is all-knowing, He sees you wanting evil for yourself and your neighbors, so if you overdo, He will interfere and try to make you recognize yourself hurting others, as they too are loved by God. This interference is not obliged to come at once, since God chooses time basing on the complete set of factors involved, including your intentions, your neighbors' troubles and their intentions. I can't perceive such a depth of wisdom, since it's plain infinite, so I can just truct God that His actions are for our good. Note that if a parent will show ignorance to his children, that parent does not show his love. God doesn't do like all-allowing parent because it will be only ignorance.
Reminds me of a video I recently watched. Testimonies
Haha, nice. I liked the part where he revealed who the guy was^^
Your claiming to know god doesn't exist here right?
I'm a bit confused with the words here, I mean isn't it impossible to know for sure if something does not exist? Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Therefore gnostic atheism seems kinda weird to me (concerning any deity existence in general of course; I can safely say that science and rationality excludes all known theistic religions). The only way gnosticism is possible is if a deity would actually show up and prove it's divine essence. Since this didn't happen up to now, at least not for me, gnostic theism seems impossible to me. Since I don't believe, it leaves only agnostic atheism left; however I am 100% convinced of the non-existence of any deity. Would you call that knowledge aka gnosticism?
Still, you haven't proven the latter, that the lightning happening in exactly given manner without God. Say, why Gloria Polo wasn't killed outright?
That's because it's NOT NEEDED. You also DON'T PROVE A NEGATIVE. In other words I can't prove God isn't having some effect on any of this but we also have no evidence he is, we have no reason to say God did it. So the question is what proof do we have that God did do it? That would be proving a positive.
I'm a bit confused with the words here, I mean isn't it impossible to know for sure if something does not exist?
If you want to be technical about it we can't be entirely sure of what does exist either. But this is getting into a more philosophical view of what we regard as knowledge. To simplify things I leave it at what we think we know or don't know. This would have most theists being gnostic while most atheist are agnostic.
This puts up an interesting argument on that. http://pithandsubstance.blogspot.com/20 ⦠ce-of.html
Hmm.. well I guess it depends if you expect something, and either find it or do not find it, or simply look out for something that you have no or very few expectations of, right? I would still correct him though; he says absence of evidence can be evidence of absence, if your expectations haven't been fulfilled. I would rather say, technically, absence of evidence is a higher probability of absence. But that's taking it once again on the debate about how certain we can be of things...
To simplify things I leave it at what we think we know or don't know. This would have most theists being gnostic while most atheist are agnostic.
Then I guess I am a gnostic atheist after all. Somehow wasn't satisfied with being a "weak" atheist anyway, lol
That's because it's NOT NEEDED. You also DON'T PROVE A NEGATIVE.
In other words, you state something can't be another something, and leave it at that. We aren't in the court - yet. And, you're again playing probabilistic games, while not backing up your assertions. This means I don't need to prove which God made the miracle.
And this thread will untimately turn into a debate.
What a surprise.
On topic, I am an Atheist. Raised Catholic, but like many of you say, I am a logical thinker if I am anything. I need indisputable proof to believe in something as far-fetched as an omnipotent, omnipresent being. I'm not going to bash Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, or any other belief system. In fact, I would encourage religion. After all, what is life without morals. Religion enforces morals better than anything, even laws.
...vesperbot, your argument is totally moot. You can't "rove" Atheism because there is nothing to prove. Atheism is, essentially, a belief in nothing. Perhaps not as much nothing as, say, Nihilism, but still, a form of nothingness none the less.
You miss one part of what is love. Love is also to help separate good from evil, and showing what's evil. Love is also correcting one's mistakes for the general good of everyone, and helping those who made them to not continue. You want God to allow you doing anything, including evil, and not interfere or get disappointed. But since God is all-knowing, He sees you wanting evil for yourself and your neighbors, so if you overdo, He will interfere and try to make you recognize yourself hurting others, as they too are loved by God. This interference is not obliged to come at once, since God chooses time basing on the complete set of factors involved, including your intentions, your neighbors' troubles and their intentions. I can't perceive such a depth of wisdom, since it's plain infinite, so I can just truct God that His actions are for our good. Note that if a parent will show ignorance to his children, that parent does not show his love. God doesn't do like all-allowing parent because it will be only ignorance.
God seems pretty inconsistent with how he operates, it's like no one is there at all doing anything.
In other words, you state something can't be another something, and leave it at that. We aren't in the court - yet.
Same rules apply.
And, you're again playing probabilistic games, while not backing up your assertions. This means I don't need to prove which God made the miracle.
I'm not making assertions here and I'm not playing problematic games. Quite dancing around things.
