Should Israel Exist - Armor Games Community

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GoblinD

322 posts

Nomad

Posted June 19, '11 12:40pm UTC

Btw, as far as punishment goes. Nobody can do whatever he wants in the IDF without punishment. When someone does then he can get trail for murder or anything else his done just like anyone else and just like in any other western militry.

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grimml

879 posts

Nomad

Posted June 19, '11 3:05pm UTC

As with every religion, Judaism has it's extremists, but unlike most other religions they have a place where they can practice their RADICAL BELIEFS OFTEN WITHOUT PUNISHMENT, if they can get into the IDF then they can easily use it asa place to kill civilianswithout punishment, and althought these are a very small minority, the damage they can cause to the situation is enourmous

As far as I know they don't serve in the army because they oppose the state of Israel. They see themselves as anti-Zionists.

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akqpars

183 posts

Nomad

Posted June 19, '11 5:23pm UTC

[quote]As far as I know they don't serve in the army because they oppose the state of Israel. They see themselves as anti-Zionists.

Actually the rest of the country see them as anti-zionists.They consider themselves The Zionists.Some of the citizens even abuse this state to not serve in military claiming themselves religious, so the government is tracking their internet activities such facebook etc. If they find anything inappropriate,they are being forced to serve in military.

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akqpars

183 posts

Nomad

Posted June 19, '11 5:41pm UTC

Please someone show me how to exclude my sentence in my comments.

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thebluerabbit

5,340 posts

Farmer

Posted June 19, '11 8:07pm UTC

Please someone show me how to exclude my sentence in my comments.

copy a sentence, press quote, paste sentence, press quote, continue. took me ages to understand that XD.

anyway im not sure your right. they dont see them selves as zionist. zionist is a jewish person who wants to live in israel but those people live in the "land" israel and not the "state". i think if youd call one of them a zionist he would probably be really annoyed XP

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sprooschicken

1,143 posts

Nomad

Posted June 19, '11 8:13pm UTC

Btw, as far as punishment goes. Nobody can do whatever he wants in the IDF without punishment. When someone does then he can get trail for murder or anything else his done just like anyone else and just like in any other western militry.

I wasn't saying you could, I was simply saying that its far easier to get away with murder ina combat situation than it is in civilian life

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GoblinD

322 posts

Nomad

Posted June 19, '11 9:05pm UTC

i think if youd call one of them a zionist he would probably be really annoyed XP

Well some of them do consider themselves Zionists but say their Zionism is more right then other people's. But yea I think the majority of them would not consider themselves Zionists simply because they don't like Israel, be it because its too secular or because it exists before the massiah arrived.

I wasn't saying you could, I was simply saying that its far easier to get away with murder ina combat situation than it is in civilian life

In a combat situation its not murder. People don't go to the army just to kill. Crazy cocos that all they want is to kill would not to it in the army, its just to tough. The army is very careful not to give guns to people like those and their extremely easy to spot (in tough situations like bootcamp you see who people really are, its human nature to put the mask down when times are hard).
If some soldier did for some reason decide to go murder someone I don't think its too hard to find out about it because soldiers very rarely go alone in dangerous areas like Arab villages.

[quote]\r\ni think if youd call one of them a zionist he would probably be really annoyed XP\r\n[/quote]\r\nWell some of them do consider themselves Zionists but say their Zionism is more right then other people's. But yea I think the majority of them would not consider themselves Zionists simply because they don't like Israel, be it because its too secular or because it exists before the massiah arrived.\r\n\r\n[quote]\r\nI wasn't saying you could, I was simply saying that its far easier to get away with murder ina combat situation than it is in civilian life\r\n[/quote]\r\nIn a combat situation its not murder. People don't go to the army just to kill. Crazy cocos that all they want is to kill would not to it in the army, its just to tough. The army is very careful not to give guns to people like those and their extremely easy to spot (in tough situations like bootcamp you see who people really are, its human nature to put the mask down when times are hard).\r\nIf some soldier did for some reason decide to go murder someone I don't think its too hard to find out about it because soldiers very rarely go alone in dangerous areas like Arab villages.

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Armed_Blade

1,482 posts

Shepherd

Posted June 20, '11 4:45am UTC

In a combat situation its not murder. People don't go to the army just to kill. Crazy cocos that all they want is to kill would not to it in the army, its just to tough. The army is very careful not to give guns to people like those and their extremely easy to spot (in tough situations like bootcamp you see who people really are, its human nature to put the mask down when times are hard).

What?
If you ever saw the wikileaks video of the American troops running an apache chopper through a computer, it seemed scary. They were just like 'haha, yeah! Shoot the *******s!' like it was a video game.
Also, the idea is not that some soldier hops into battle to walk over and kill someone, the idea is that during a fight, or during a battle, soldiers look at the enemy with hate. I mean, there are clearly noticeable reports of Palestinians being roughly abused by Israeli soldiers -- this had to come from some where, and when these reports come out there is nothing I ever see from Israeli press that shows that Israel took any action to find out what happened. You seem to think that they wont' give a gun to 'just anyone' -- but everyone in Israel goes through a training camp and a lot of the people in the country have guns. It's a warfort that's instilled the idea of combat in millions. It is murder in a combat situation when you kill someone in cold blood. Something Israel readily did in their invasion of the Gaza Strip, when all they were really looking for was Hamas.

It's just like America in the USA, I saw a bit of this thing on CNN called 'The Mission of Julian Assange' where he got a video of American troops in a helicopter gunner thinking a guy with a camera had an RPG, and with just a fuzzy black and white image they decided it was okay to shoot him and the rest of his crew. Looked brutal. I'd call that murder, sorry to say. This is the idea of counter-insurgency, something Israel has done to Palestine, and something America has done to Iraq. Both have proved to not only weaken the process of making peace, but also to create more terrorists and hostility. If you're after a target that just so happens to be in favor of a denomination, there is no excuse to simply flood that groups territory and harass them until you've shown the few you were looking for a lesson.

[quote]In a combat situation its not murder. People don't go to the army just to kill. Crazy cocos that all they want is to kill would not to it in the army, its just to tough. The army is very careful not to give guns to people like those and their extremely easy to spot (in tough situations like bootcamp you see who people really are, its human nature to put the mask down when times are hard).[/quote]\r\n\r\nWhat?\r\nIf you ever saw the wikileaks video of the American troops running an apache chopper through a computer, it seemed scary. They were just like 'haha, yeah! Shoot the *******s!' like it was a video game. \r\nAlso, the idea is not that some soldier hops into battle to walk over and kill someone, the idea is that during a fight, or during a battle, soldiers look at the enemy with hate. I mean, there are clearly noticeable reports of Palestinians being roughly abused by Israeli soldiers -- this had to come from some where, and when these reports come out there is nothing I ever see from Israeli press that shows that Israel took any action to find out what happened. You seem to think that they wont' give a gun to 'just anyone' -- but everyone in Israel goes through a training camp and a lot of the people in the country have guns. It's a warfort that's instilled the idea of combat in millions. It is murder in a combat situation when you kill someone in cold blood. Something Israel readily did in their invasion of the Gaza Strip, when all they were really looking for was Hamas. \r\n\r\nIt's just like America in the USA, I saw a bit of this thing on CNN called 'The Mission of Julian Assange' where he got a video of American troops in a helicopter gunner thinking a guy with a camera had an RPG, and with just a fuzzy black and white image they decided it was okay to shoot him and the rest of his crew. Looked brutal. I'd call that murder, sorry to say. This is the idea of counter-insurgency, something Israel has done to Palestine, and something America has done to Iraq. Both have proved to not only weaken the process of making peace, but also to create more terrorists and hostility. If you're after a target that just so happens to be in favor of a denomination, there is no excuse to simply flood that groups territory and harass them until you've shown the few you were looking for a lesson.

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GoblinD

322 posts

Nomad

Posted June 20, '11 8:33am UTC

Also, the idea is not that some soldier hops into battle to walk over and kill someone, the idea is that during a fight, or during a battle, soldiers look at the enemy with hate. I mean, there are clearly noticeable reports of Palestinians being roughly abused by Israeli soldiers -- this had to come from some where, and when these reports come out there is nothing I ever see from Israeli press that shows that Israel took any action to find out what happened. You seem to think that they wont' give a gun to 'just anyone' -- but everyone in Israel goes through a training camp and a lot of the people in the country have guns. It's a warfort that's instilled the idea of combat in millions. It is murder in a combat situation when you kill someone in cold blood. Something Israel readily did in their invasion of the Gaza Strip, when all they were really looking for was Hamas.

First of all the media showed everything and the soldiers proven responsible where put to trail. You can find whatever article you want in ynet.co.il for example if you have a translator.
As for crazy soldiers, USA accepts prisoners and such people what do you expect? In Israel people who don't want to goto the army don't go (about 15% of the Jewish population) for hate there are countless military propaganda's against hatred of the enemy. People who go to the army have defende you're country first, anything else second. Its extremely easy to spot those who like you said, think its a video game and I'm sure the US military also found out about those soldiers if wikipeaks did.
For everyone going to the army, not everyone gets guns. I know a lot of people who failed the psychological tests and were forced out of the army. Many others can stay in the army but never get guns, they can get jobs like switching batteries all day or driving trucks.
So yea some people do get through but statistically they almost never get guns (especially not helis)and its rare to see something happen. Especially in comparison to other militaries in the world. But they do happen sometimes, like in any other war in history of mankind.

For the camera guy, might have been a bad call but I personally would not have taken the chance it wasn't an RPG. And don't lie, would you? I'm sure atleast 90% of the times it really is an RPG.

As for Gaza, peace is correctly far from an option (unlike the West bank). We fight Hamas and weaken its ability to lunch rockets and other terror attacks through blockades and precise airstrikes (that 95% of the times don't hit civilians, even when their used as human shields)

[quote]\r\nAlso, the idea is not that some soldier hops into battle to walk over and kill someone, the idea is that during a fight, or during a battle, soldiers look at the enemy with hate. I mean, there are clearly noticeable reports of Palestinians being roughly abused by Israeli soldiers -- this had to come from some where, and when these reports come out there is nothing I ever see from Israeli press that shows that Israel took any action to find out what happened. You seem to think that they wont' give a gun to 'just anyone' -- but everyone in Israel goes through a training camp and a lot of the people in the country have guns. It's a warfort that's instilled the idea of combat in millions. It is murder in a combat situation when you kill someone in cold blood. Something Israel readily did in their invasion of the Gaza Strip, when all they were really looking for was Hamas. \r\n[/quote]\r\nFirst of all the media showed everything and the soldiers proven responsible where put to trail. You can find whatever article you want in ynet.co.il for example if you have a translator.\r\nAs for crazy soldiers, USA accepts prisoners and such people what do you expect? In Israel people who don't want to goto the army don't go (about 15% of the Jewish population) for hate there are countless military propaganda's against hatred of the enemy. People who go to the army have defende you're country first, anything else second. Its extremely easy to spot those who like you said, think its a video game and I'm sure the US military also found out about those soldiers if wikipeaks did.\r\nFor everyone going to the army, not everyone gets guns. I know a lot of people who failed the psychological tests and were forced out of the army. Many others can stay in the army but never get guns, they can get jobs like switching batteries all day or driving trucks.\r\nSo yea some people do get through but statistically they almost never get guns (especially not helis)and its rare to see something happen. Especially in comparison to other militaries in the world. But they do happen sometimes, like in any other war in history of mankind.\r\n\r\nFor the camera guy, might have been a bad call but I personally would not have taken the chance it wasn't an RPG. And don't lie, would you? I'm sure atleast 90% of the times it really is an RPG.\r\n\r\nAs for Gaza, peace is correctly far from an option (unlike the West bank). We fight Hamas and weaken its ability to lunch rockets and other terror attacks through blockades and precise airstrikes (that 95% of the times don't hit civilians, even when their used as human shields)

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Armed_Blade

1,482 posts

Shepherd

Posted June 21, '11 1:28am UTC

For the camera guy, might have been a bad call but I personally would not have taken the chance it wasn't an RPG. And don't lie, would you? I'm sure atleast 90% of the times it really is an RPG

That's what I was thinking. But the two men manning the equipment were literally looking for anything to shoot. None of them lost their jobs, even after their actions being aired on national television, and their commanding officer said it was the camera mans fault for being out in the war zone with suspicious material. [The war zone being the entire city, lmao]. Furthermore, the next clip was of a truck getting shot down that had children in it all because a man came out with a gun [who surrendered]. Neither the US campaign in Iraq or Israel's army show a policy of waiting to be attacked before attacking. That is what makes the issues happen.

I'm just giving examples of America's wrongdoings in Iraq, but I do know that Israel has done more if not the same.

Lastly, your comment about how Armies are regulated -- in just about every country in the world, when a war is going on and men are needed -- these requirements are put to rest. Israel isn't unergoing any military struggle, so yes, this would happen. Whatever the case, my comments are referring to things the Army has already done, not what it is doing right now. There must be a reason as to why people are leaving the West Bank and Gaza.

Also, Israel's exclusivity in it's way of doing things has shown that it's not good at making friends.
http://ksusentinel.com/op-ed/why-we-should-support-israel/

The comment right below it shows my point. Israel is always attracting the world's media. No soldiers of any country are always put into war trials. I'm not even saying that's where the argument is. The question is -- Why do these offensives happen in the first place?

I mean, Israel has had the indecency to strip Gaza of it's right to import material and use the ocean right next to it, but still can't find a way to keep rockets out? Clearly the whole 'You keep your crappy Gaza and we take the rest' ideology of Israel has proven only to make enemies. What do you expect to happen if the hate keeps brewing? I understand Israel wants to give the image of a bunch of nice people living happily and right next door a bunch of crazy monsters that want to attack, but that is simply not the case.

Most of the Muslims that I've talked to usually have a terrible opinion of Israel. Not because they're Muslims and they hate Jews, it is because, just as the Western media supports Israel, the eastern supports Palestinians. I've seen stories from both sides and I still feel that Israel's not fixing the problem. It is a nation made because of a war, that created itself out of a war, and seemingly always is at war and has not done much to promote peace.

[quote]For the camera guy, might have been a bad call but I personally would not have taken the chance it wasn't an RPG. And don't lie, would you? I'm sure atleast 90% of the times it really is an RPG[/quote]\r\n\r\nThat's what I was thinking. But the two men manning the equipment were literally looking for anything to shoot. None of them lost their jobs, even after their actions being aired on national television, and their commanding officer said it was the camera mans fault for being out in the war zone with suspicious material.  [The war zone being the entire city, lmao]. Furthermore, the next clip was of a truck getting shot down that had children in it all because a man came out with a gun [who surrendered]. Neither the US campaign in Iraq or Israel's army show a policy of waiting to be attacked before attacking. That is what makes the issues happen. \r\n\r\nI'm just giving examples of America's wrongdoings in Iraq, but I do know that Israel has done more if not the same. \r\n\r\nLastly, your comment about how Armies are regulated -- in just about every country in the world, when a war is going on and men are needed -- these requirements are put to rest. Israel isn't unergoing any military struggle, so yes, this would happen. Whatever the case, my comments are referring to things the Army has already done, not what it is doing right now. There must be a reason as to why people are leaving the West Bank and Gaza. \r\n\r\nAlso, Israel's exclusivity in it's way of doing things has shown that it's not good at making friends. \r\n[url=Read the article, then the comment below]http://ksusentinel.com/op-ed/why-we-should-support-israel/[/url]\r\n\r\nThe comment right below it shows my point. Israel is always attracting the world's media. No soldiers of any country are always put into war trials. I'm not even saying that's where the argument is. The question is -- Why do these offensives happen in the first place?\r\n\r\nI mean, Israel has had the indecency to strip Gaza of it's right to import material and use the ocean right next to it, but still can't find a way to keep rockets out? Clearly the whole 'You keep your crappy Gaza and we take the rest' ideology of Israel has proven only to make enemies. What do you expect to happen if the hate keeps brewing? I understand Israel wants to give the image of a bunch of nice people living happily and right next door a bunch of crazy monsters that want to attack, but that is simply not the case. \r\n\r\nMost of the Muslims that I've talked to usually have a terrible opinion of Israel. Not because they're Muslims and they hate Jews, it is because, just as the Western media supports Israel, the eastern supports Palestinians. I've seen stories from both sides and I still feel that Israel's not fixing the problem. It is a nation made because of a war, that created itself out of a war, and seemingly always is at war and has not done much to promote peace.

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Armed_Blade

1,482 posts

Shepherd

Posted June 21, '11 1:29am UTC

Sorry I failed. wish i could edit my messages.

But yeah, read the comment below it.

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GoblinD

322 posts

Nomad

Posted June 21, '11 9:25am UTC

That's what I was thinking. But the two men manning the equipment were literally looking for anything to shoot. None of them lost their jobs, even after their actions being aired on national television, and their commanding officer said it was the camera mans fault for being out in the war zone with suspicious material. [The war zone being the entire city, lmao]. Furthermore, the next clip was of a truck getting shot down that had children in it all because a man came out with a gun [who surrendered]. Neither the US campaign in Iraq or Israel's army show a policy of waiting to be attacked before attacking. That is what makes the issues happen.

I be shot before shooting in this situation would mean ur dead. Do you know how many Taliban with actual RPGs aim at US soldiers? If they would be fired at first they would all be dead. That's how RPGs work and its also true to many other situations. Here the soldiers did a bad call, maybe they were exited to shoot a guy they thought is a Taliban but that doesn't make them think their in a video game. If they would have shot someone for no reason you could have said that. Not everyone can be the ideal soldier you have in mined that moarns every enemy he kills. The truck guy is just the same, US troops did a mistake and mistakes happen. In US there's even a military policy called **** happens but there's no such thing in Israel so if it would have happened here the soldier would get a trail and maybe even be kicked out of his unit.

Lastly, your comment about how Armies are regulated -- in just about every country in the world, when a war is going on and men are needed -- these requirements are put to rest. Israel isn't unergoing any military struggle, so yes, this would happen. Whatever the case, my comments are referring to things the Army has already done, not what it is doing right now. There must be a reason as to why people are leaving the West Bank and Gaza.

To begin with Israel is still in a military conflict with Hamas and other terror organizations with constant alert about every single of out neighboring countries. But I see what you mean. However when a real war breaks its 100% of the times about Israel's survival. Last time that happened was in 1973 in the yom-kipur war. When Arab armies threaten to destroy Israel and kill everyone in their way, &quotush the Jews into the sea" as they say, not lowering the standards in order to survive is simply not an option.
For leaving the West Bank and Gaza, why do people leave Mexico? Why do people leave Algeria? Economic considerations usually. Plus, Gaza is on its way to be a only city area like Singapore.

Also, Israel's exclusivity in it's way of doing things has shown that it's not good at making friends.

Would you happen to be the commenting guy?
As for friends, Israel has a lot of allies around the world, more then the US media would probably tell you. For the Muslim world if you look a little at recent events you will see Saudi Arabia, UAE and Yemen are all growing friends with Israel. Turkey as you may know is trying (and succeeding) in becoming a regional superpower, what do you think is the best and cheapest way of making friends in the Middle East? But that's me.

The comment right below it shows my point. Israel is always attracting the world's media. No soldiers of any country are always put into war trials. I'm not even saying that's where the argument is. The question is -- Why do these offensives happen in the first place?

Israel is in the media and the center of western attention for complicated reasons and from its first day. Its a combination of Oil, close to europe, Jews are people known to Europeans unlike Africans, antisemitism, others. For trails I'm not sure what you mean but if you think Israel is the only one accused of doing them you can look up USA in Iraq, the Balkan wars, WW2 (allies), any other war in history of mankind.

I mean, Israel has had the indecency to strip Gaza of it's right to import material and use the ocean right next to it, but still can't find a way to keep rockets out? Clearly the whole 'You keep your crappy Gaza and we take the rest' ideology of Israel has proven only to make enemies. What do you expect to happen if the hate keeps brewing? I understand Israel wants to give the image of a bunch of nice people living happily and right next door a bunch of crazy monsters that want to attack, but that is simply not the case.

Gaza is currently in war with Israel and targets Israel's civilians. If Israel would let Gaza freely trade with the world it could get more advanced Russian and Iranian missiles they always wanted, more AA weapons, more Anti ship weapons, etc. With the blockade Gaza is only hardly getting the simplest rocket through tunnels and homemade rockets. To bring more advanced weapons they need to be shipped to Egypt and from there to be tunneled to Gaza but the weapons can then be found by searching ships arriving to Egypt.
As for the ideology, no one is saying you keep Gaza we keep the rest. Listen to netanyaho's speech to the congress if you don't believe me. Israel wants to keep around 5-6% of the West bank that includes the strategic places and major settlements.
For Image, its impossible to give that image. Just read a bit of their constant anti Israel propaganda at schools to understand why. The main objective is to negotiate with the leaders, not the people.

It is a nation made because of a war, that created itself out of a war, and seemingly always is at war and has not done much to promote peace.

Most countries today where made of war... For peace afferts you are brainwashed if you don't know them. Israel proposed the 1967 boarders a long time ago and the Palestinians refused, last PM Israel had also offered the Palestinians around 96% of the West bank and making up for it with Israeli land in return to help connect Gaza and the West Bank - Palestinians refused. Israel gave all of Sini to Egypt that included control of the Suetz, lots of oil and the Tiran pass to Israel's southern port - all for peace with Egypt. Lots of other stuff but this should be enough.

[quote]\r\nThat's what I was thinking. But the two men manning the equipment were literally looking for anything to shoot. None of them lost their jobs, even after their actions being aired on national television, and their commanding officer said it was the camera mans fault for being out in the war zone with suspicious material.  [The war zone being the entire city, lmao]. Furthermore, the next clip was of a truck getting shot down that had children in it all because a man came out with a gun [who surrendered]. Neither the US campaign in Iraq or Israel's army show a policy of waiting to be attacked before attacking. That is what makes the issues happen. \r\n[/quote]\r\nI be shot before shooting in this situation would mean ur dead. Do you know how many Taliban with actual RPGs aim at US soldiers? If they would be fired at first they would all be dead. That's how RPGs work and its also true to many other situations. Here the soldiers did a bad call, maybe they were exited to shoot a guy they thought is a Taliban but that doesn't make them think their in a video game. If they would have shot someone for no reason you could have said that. Not everyone can be the ideal soldier you have in mined that moarns every enemy he kills. The truck guy is just the same, US troops did a mistake and mistakes happen. In US there's even a military policy called **** happens but there's no such thing in Israel so if it would have happened here the soldier would get a trail and maybe even be kicked out of his unit.\r\n\r\n[quote]\r\nLastly, your comment about how Armies are regulated -- in just about every country in the world, when a war is going on and men are needed -- these requirements are put to rest. Israel isn't unergoing any military struggle, so yes, this would happen. Whatever the case, my comments are referring to things the Army has already done, not what it is doing right now. There must be a reason as to why people are leaving the West Bank and Gaza. \r\n[/quote]\r\nTo begin with Israel is still in a military conflict with Hamas and other terror organizations with constant alert about every single of out neighboring countries. But I see what you mean. However when a real war breaks its 100% of the times about Israel's survival. Last time that happened was in 1973 in the yom-kipur war. When Arab armies threaten to destroy Israel and kill everyone in their way, "push the Jews into the sea" as they say, not lowering the standards in order to survive is simply not an option.\r\nFor leaving the West Bank and Gaza, why do people leave Mexico? Why do people leave Algeria? Economic considerations usually. Plus, Gaza is on its way to be a only city area like Singapore.\r\n\r\n[quote]\r\nAlso, Israel's exclusivity in it's way of doing things has shown that it's not good at making friends.\r\n[/quote]\r\nWould you happen to be the commenting guy? \r\nAs for friends, Israel has a lot of allies around the world, more then the US media would probably tell you. For the Muslim world if you look a little at recent events you will see Saudi Arabia, UAE and Yemen are all growing friends with Israel. Turkey as you may know is trying (and succeeding) in becoming a regional superpower, what do you think is the best and cheapest way of making friends in the Middle East? But that's me.\r\n\r\n[quote]\r\nThe comment right below it shows my point. Israel is always attracting the world's media. No soldiers of any country are always put into war trials. I'm not even saying that's where the argument is. The question is -- Why do these offensives happen in the first place?\r\n[/quote]\r\nIsrael is in the media and the center of western attention for complicated reasons and from its first day. Its a combination of Oil, close to europe, Jews are people known to Europeans unlike Africans, antisemitism, others. For trails I'm not sure what you mean but if you think Israel is the only one accused of doing them you can look up USA in Iraq, the Balkan wars, WW2 (allies), any other war in history of mankind.\r\n\r\n[quote]\r\nI mean, Israel has had the indecency to strip Gaza of it's right to import material and use the ocean right next to it, but still can't find a way to keep rockets out? Clearly the whole 'You keep your crappy Gaza and we take the rest' ideology of Israel has proven only to make enemies. What do you expect to happen if the hate keeps brewing? I understand Israel wants to give the image of a bunch of nice people living happily and right next door a bunch of crazy monsters that want to attack, but that is simply not the case. \r\n[/quote]\r\nGaza is currently in war with Israel and targets Israel's civilians. If Israel would let Gaza freely trade with the world it could get more advanced Russian and Iranian missiles they always wanted, more AA weapons, more Anti ship weapons, etc. With the blockade Gaza is only hardly getting the simplest rocket through tunnels and homemade rockets. To bring more advanced weapons they need to be shipped to Egypt and from there to be tunneled to Gaza but the weapons can then be found by searching ships arriving to Egypt.\r\nAs for the ideology, no one is saying you keep Gaza we keep the rest. Listen to netanyaho's speech to the congress if you don't believe me. Israel wants to keep around 5-6% of the West bank that includes the strategic places and major settlements.\r\nFor Image, its impossible to give that image. Just read a bit of their constant anti Israel propaganda at schools to understand why. The main objective is to negotiate with the leaders, not the people.\r\n\r\n[quote]\r\nIt is a nation made because of a war, that created itself out of a war, and seemingly always is at war and has not done much to promote peace.\r\n[/quote]\r\nMost countries today where made of war... For peace afferts you are brainwashed if you don't know them. Israel proposed the 1967 boarders a long time ago and the Palestinians refused, last PM Israel had also offered the Palestinians around 96% of the West bank and making up for it with Israeli land in return to help connect Gaza and the West Bank - Palestinians refused. Israel gave all of Sini to Egypt that included control of the Suetz, lots of oil and the Tiran pass to Israel's southern port - all for peace with Egypt. Lots of other stuff but this should be enough.

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Armed_Blade

1,482 posts

Shepherd

Posted June 21, '11 10:44pm UTC

[quote]Do you know how many Taliban with actual RPGs aim at US soldiers?

Not an argument in this case. Since it's a war on terror, by killing civilians, not only war we contributing to the terror but we are helping in the making of terrorists. Fun stuff.

For leaving the West Bank and Gaza, why do people leave Mexico? Why do people leave Algeria? Economic considerations usually. Plus, Gaza is on its way to be a only city area like Singapore.

No, people leave Mexico at a steady rate. There are 12 Million Mexican immigrants in the USA, there are 150 Million Mexicans. It's not as if they are all slamming at the border. Some live there because they have personal autonomy and a smaller, yet still existing chance of opportunity, something that Gazans do not have.
Also, I see no proof of Gaza ever turning into a Singapore.

If Israel would let Gaza freely trade with the world it could get more advanced Russian and Iranian missiles they always wanted, more AA weapons, more Anti ship weapons, etc.

Right. So instead, restrict their rights and their freedoms [Even though Israel is such a shining beacon of democracy] and lock them away because a few of the people in the region are part of Hamas, a group that threatens Israel. For that, landlock a possibly prosperous community and restrict their freedoms all out of fear that Israel may be harmed. No evil in that, right?

Listen to netanyaho's speech to the congress if you don't believe me. Israel wants to keep around 5-6% of the West bank that includes the strategic places and major settlements.

5-6% of the West Bank. An area that has been listed as 'Militarily occupied' for years, never part of Israel, but he still wants more of it. Also, I read somewhere that the piece he wants is part of the river. -- This further cuts Palestinians from valuable farmland, trade, and prosperity. Israel already gained so much land after 1973, and made sure it kept it. All it looks like is that Israel wants to grow, grow, and grow. Why does Netanyahu feel that Israel deserves any percent of the West Bank?

Just read a bit of their constant anti Israel propaganda at schools to understand why. The main objective is to negotiate with the leaders, not the people.

Propoganda is everywhere. Americans schools shove down a lot of pro-Israeli proganda, and back in the day they had a lot of anti-communist propoganda.

Most countries today where made of war...

Israel wasn't created out of war. It was created because of a war.

For peace afferts you are brainwashed if you don't know them. Israel proposed the 1967 boarders a long time ago and the Palestinians refused, last PM Israel had also offered the Palestinians around 96% of the West bank and making up for it with Israeli land in return to help connect Gaza and the West Bank - Palestinians refused. Israel gave all of Sini to Egypt that included control of the Suetz, lots of oil and the Tiran pass to Israel's southern port - all for peace with Egypt. Lots of other stuff but this should be enough.

I understand they did this, but none of this seemed fair. My chronology looks at it differently. It starts with Palestinians unfairly losing land because of some war [that seemed, to them] that randomly took place in Europe. After them trying to defend their land [and, eventfully losing] they were asked to accept borders.

Also, as to the signing of Egypt and Israel, Egypt also made an oath never to attack Israel ever again. To me, this seemed more as a defensive military maneuver to help better control it's possible enemies in the east without having to worry about a southern attack from a hardly naviatable desert.

Also, I'm addressing this part of your comment for last since it had some major factual errors:

As for friends, Israel has a lot of allies around the world, more then the US media would probably tell you.

The US Media always tells you. Just last week Obama told the people that Israel is our closest ally, in hopes of getting Jewish votes and safety from Jewish lobbying in the upcoming election after a few not so well talks with Benjamin. Also, the media usually says that most Americans support Israel. Also, most American media is Jewish owned, and usually pro-Israel.

For the Muslim world if you look a little at recent events you will see Saudi Arabia,

A quote, from Wikipedia: [I'm using wiki because this is so age old there is no real news/article I can get for you]. Link:

Saudi Arabia does not have diplomatic relations with Israel. The country participates in an active economic boycott of Israel. However, Saudi Arabia recognizes that its ally, the United States, has a strong and supportive relationship of Israel.

^ From Wikipedia. If you read more on it, you'll see that SA and Israel aren't even close to being buddies and Saudi Arabia is not only very pro Palestinian but rejected the Camp David Accords [and that's still current info considering the same ruling family is still in power today in Saudi Arabia]

Oh yeah, great buddies.

UAE

So, the UAE does not recognize Israel as a nation.
They denied Tennis Player Shahar Pe'er.
And in Jan 19,2010, the UAE, following an assassination, called for the arrest of Meir Dagan, the Mossad director. Israel has not responded to the connection.
Also, the UAE will not let anyone that may be possibly Israeli from entering the country, even if they have foreign passports.

Good friends indeed...

Yemen

Sort of. Yemen was a little Jewish friendly before 1947, [until the partition plan]. Overall in recent history, though, Yemen is a radicalized nation that is dependent on American goodwill. It's government is just trying to get more cash out of the USA by exporting more oil to the west than east, and co transitively also making working relations with Israel. But overall, they're still in bad taste.

Yemen's treatment of its Jewish community reflected its negative attitude towards the Jewish State. In 1946, there were about 50,000 Jews in Yemen, 6,000 of whom lived in San'a, the capital, with the rest in British-controlled Aden and in rural areas. They were considered indispensable to the economy and did not suffer systematic persecution. However, their status remained inferior to that of the Muslim population.

A bit from wiki.
Also, Yemen is not on America's to be friendly list anyway, I'm sure.

So after all of that.
To answer this.

what do you think is the best and cheapest way of making friends in the Middle East? But that's me.

Idk about you, but clearly not Israel...

As for Turkey, they are a nation of great pride. Not only a rising regional power but one that needs western connection to develop. For that reason, they are becoming friendly with Israel, but they don't have any influence in that area on other countries within the area. They were and always have been American friends, Israel isn't doing much to change that. [A good example is in the cold war cuban missile crisis, we gave turkey some perks and we put our bombs in there]. Turkey's also wanted in on the European Union, and for that, they have to show better international peace effort. And, to most of the West, that means being nicer to Israel.

So overall, Yes, I'm extremely sure that Israel isn't doing well in making any friends, and the international dislike America receives in the Muslim world is, in part, due to it's support for Israel.

[quote][quote]Do you know how many Taliban with actual RPGs aim at US soldiers? [/quote]\r\n\r\nNot an argument in this case. Since it's a war on terror, by killing civilians, not only war we contributing to the terror but we are helping in the making of terrorists. Fun stuff.\r\n\r\n[quote]For leaving the West Bank and Gaza, why do people leave Mexico? Why do people leave Algeria? Economic considerations usually. Plus, Gaza is on its way to be a only city area like Singapore.[/quote]\r\n\r\nNo, people leave Mexico at a steady rate. There are 12 Million Mexican immigrants in the USA, there are 150 Million Mexicans. It's not as if they are all slamming at the border. Some live there because they have personal autonomy and a smaller, yet still existing chance of opportunity, something that Gazans do not have. \r\nAlso, I see no proof of Gaza ever turning into a Singapore.\r\n\r\n[quote]If Israel would let Gaza freely trade with the world it could get more advanced Russian and Iranian missiles they always wanted, more AA weapons, more Anti ship weapons, etc.[/quote]\r\n\r\nRight. So instead, restrict their rights and their freedoms [Even though Israel is such a shining beacon of democracy] and lock them away because a few of the people in the region are part of Hamas, a group that threatens Israel. For that, landlock a possibly prosperous community and restrict their freedoms all out of fear that Israel may be harmed. No evil in that, right?\r\n\r\n[quote]Listen to netanyaho's speech to the congress if you don't believe me. Israel wants to keep around 5-6% of the West bank that includes the strategic places and major settlements.[/quote]\r\n\r\n5-6% of the West Bank. An area that has been listed as 'Militarily occupied' for years, never part of Israel, but he still wants more of it. Also, I read somewhere that the piece he wants is part of the river. -- This further cuts Palestinians from valuable farmland, trade, and prosperity. Israel already gained so much land after 1973, and made sure it kept it. All it looks like is that Israel wants to grow, grow, and grow. Why does Netanyahu feel that Israel deserves any percent of the West Bank?\r\n\r\n[quote]Just read a bit of their constant anti Israel propaganda at schools to understand why. The main objective is to negotiate with the leaders, not the people.[/quote]\r\n\r\nPropoganda is everywhere. Americans schools shove down a lot of pro-Israeli proganda, and back in the day they had a lot of anti-communist propoganda.\r\n\r\n[quote]Most countries today where made of war... [/quote]\r\nIsrael wasn't created out of war. It was created because of a war. \r\n\r\n[quote]For peace afferts you are brainwashed if you don't know them. Israel proposed the 1967 boarders a long time ago and the Palestinians refused, last PM Israel had also offered the Palestinians around 96% of the West bank and making up for it with Israeli land in return to help connect Gaza and the West Bank - Palestinians refused. Israel gave all of Sini to Egypt that included control of the Suetz, lots of oil and the Tiran pass to Israel's southern port - all for peace with Egypt. Lots of other stuff but this should be enough.[/quote]\r\n\r\nI understand they did this, but none of this seemed fair. My chronology looks at it differently. It starts with Palestinians unfairly losing land because of some war [that seemed, to them] that randomly took place in Europe. After them trying to defend their land [and, eventfully losing] they were asked to accept borders. \r\n\r\nAlso, as to the signing of Egypt and Israel, Egypt also made an oath never to attack Israel ever again. To me, this seemed more as a defensive military maneuver to help better control it's possible enemies in the east without having to worry about a southern attack from a hardly naviatable desert.\r\n\r\nAlso, I'm addressing this part of your comment for last since it had some [b]major factual errors:[/b]\r\n[quote]As for friends, Israel has a lot of allies around the world, more then the US media would probably tell you.[/quote]\r\n\r\nThe US Media always tells you. Just last week Obama told the people that Israel is our closest ally, in hopes of getting Jewish votes and safety from Jewish lobbying in the upcoming election after a few not so well talks with Benjamin. Also, the media usually says that most Americans support Israel. Also, most American media is Jewish owned, and usually pro-Israel. \r\n\r\n[quote]For the Muslim world if you look a little at recent events you will see Saudi Arabia,[/quote]\r\n\r\nA quote, from Wikipedia:  [I'm using wiki because this is so age old there is no real news/article I can get for you]. Link: [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Saudi_Arabia#Israel][/url]\r\n\r\n[quote]Saudi Arabia does not have diplomatic relations with Israel. The country participates in an active economic boycott of Israel. However, Saudi Arabia recognizes that its ally, the United States, has a strong and supportive relationship of Israel.[/quote]\r\n\r\n^ From Wikipedia. If you read more on it, you'll see that SA and Israel aren't even close to being buddies and Saudi Arabia is not only very pro Palestinian but rejected the Camp David Accords [and that's still current info considering the same ruling family is still in power today in Saudi Arabia]\r\n\r\nOh yeah, great buddies.\r\n[quote]UAE[/quote]\r\n\r\nSo, the UAE does not recognize Israel as a nation. \r\nThey denied Tennis Player Shahar Pe'er. \r\nAnd in Jan 19,2010, the UAE, following an assassination, called for the arrest of Meir Dagan, the Mossad director. Israel has not responded to the connection.\r\nAlso, the UAE will not let anyone that may be possibly Israeli from entering the country, even if they have foreign passports.\r\n\r\nGood friends indeed...\r\n\r\n[quote]Yemen[/quote]\r\nSort of. Yemen was a little Jewish friendly before 1947, [until the partition plan]. Overall in recent history, though, Yemen is a radicalized nation that is dependent on American goodwill. It's government is just trying to get more cash out of the USA  by exporting more oil to the west than east, and co transitively also making working relations with Israel. But overall, they're still in bad taste. [quote]Yemen's treatment of its Jewish community reflected its negative attitude towards the Jewish State. In 1946, there were about 50,000 Jews in Yemen, 6,000 of whom lived in San'a, the capital, with the rest in British-controlled Aden and in rural areas. They were considered indispensable to the economy and did not suffer systematic persecution. However, their status remained inferior to that of the Muslim population. [/quote]\r\n\r\nA bit from wiki. \r\nAlso, Yemen is not on America's to be friendly list anyway, I'm sure.\r\n\r\nSo after all of that.\r\nTo answer this.\r\n[quote]what do you think is the best and cheapest way of making friends in the Middle East? But that's me.[/quote]\r\n\r\nIdk about you, but clearly not Israel...\r\n\r\n\r\nAs for Turkey, they are a nation of great pride. Not only a rising regional power but one that needs western connection to develop. For that reason, they are becoming friendly with Israel, but they don't have any influence in that area on other countries within the area. They were and always have been American friends, Israel isn't doing much to change that. [A good example is in the cold war cuban missile crisis, we gave turkey some perks and we put our bombs in there]. Turkey's also wanted in on the European Union, and for that, they have to show better international peace effort. And, to most of the West, that means being nicer to Israel.\r\n\r\nSo overall, Yes, I'm extremely sure that Israel isn't doing well in making any friends, and the international dislike America receives in the Muslim world is, in part, due to it's support for Israel.

offline

Armed_Blade

1,482 posts

Shepherd

Posted June 21, '11 10:45pm UTC

Sorry for quoting everything. That ruined it. x.x
I didn't even notice. I wish there were a preview button.

offline

GoblinD

322 posts

Nomad

Posted June 22, '11 6:03am UTC

Not an argument in this case. Since it's a war on terror, by killing civilians, not only war we contributing to the terror but we are helping in the making of terrorists. Fun stuff.

I'm not saying its OK to shoot civilians I'm saying human mistakes happen and you can hardly expect anyone to avoid them in such a hostile environment.

No, people leave Mexico at a steady rate. There are 12 Million Mexican immigrants in the USA, there are 150 Million Mexicans. It's not as if they are all slamming at the border. Some live there because they have personal autonomy and a smaller, yet still existing chance of opportunity, something that Gazans do not have.
Also, I see no proof of Gaza ever turning into a Singapore.

People leave Mexico by close to a million every year, the more USA has a stronger economy then Mexico the more they want to go there. Gaza has an even worst economy then Mexico so why wouldn't they try to go to Europe were the economy is around what USA has?
For chance of opportunity they can always go fishing or try out a new industry but its pretty hard to make a big business when both Hamas and Israel need to agree to it's existence in order for it to develop but it can't make soaps and bombs at the same time.
For Singapore, look at how its dense, its almost just one big city. I would say in around 50 years it will be.

Right. So instead, restrict their rights and their freedoms [Even though Israel is such a shining beacon of democracy] and lock them away because a few of the people in the region are part of Hamas, a group that threatens Israel. For that, landlock a possibly prosperous community and restrict their freedoms all out of fear that Israel may be harmed. No evil in that, right?

First of all its not a small part, Hamas was actually elected by them. Second, its war. In war you restrict the enemy rights thats how it goes. Israel restricts them from importing anything unchecked by Israel or Egypt (the Egypt part may dissapear soon if the Muslim brothers take more power), any weapons or duel-use items are banned. You don't seem to understand what it means if they bring in whatever they want, last time they got an advanced Russian anti tank missile they lunched it at a school buss. Can you imagine what would happen if they had 1000 of those, more AA missiles to make air travel unsafe and anti ship missiles to sink cargo ships?
As for other blockades, I'm looking a little back in history and you're USA and the West did put a siege that starved Germany and other countries when war came, what Israel is doing is hardly doing anything close. Yes its their basic right to buy weapons from Russia, China and Iran but for now they will have to deal without it.

5-6% of the West Bank. An area that has been listed as 'Militarily occupied' for years, never part of Israel, but he still wants more of it. Also, I read somewhere that the piece he wants is part of the river. -- This further cuts Palestinians from valuable farmland, trade, and prosperity. Israel already gained so much land after 1973, and made sure it kept it. All it looks like is that Israel wants to grow, grow, and grow. Why does Netanyahu feel that Israel deserves any percent of the West Bank?

Israel didn't get anything in 1973 except surviving another major assault from all its neighbors. For the 5%, as I said before they make the main settlements and the important strategic areas. If Israel would keep the high grounds and the Jordan valley then the strength of the security would hardly be harmed by an independence of a Palestinian state. The river is important because it includes the Jordan valley and its a good natural boarder that can halt any invasion from the East (that seems more then likely to happen eventually) but its not the only agricultural part. The West bank is almost all a good agricultural area that can be used by farmers, the river is an extremely small part of it and the West bank has other small streams coming out of the Jordan river making other water supplies.
btw, if you're talking about the land Israel won in the 6-day war Israel already gave about 70% of it back to Egypt in return for peace. As for "deserve", I don't think any country in the world which is attacked and almost annihilated should not take land after victory. Especially when the land is used for better defense and because almost any war in history ended with the winners getting land.

Propoganda is everywhere. Americans schools shove down a lot of pro-Israeli proganda, and back in the day they had a lot of anti-communist propoganda.

Seems you also have anti-Israel propaganda. Having CNN and BBC at home seems to me like more then balancing anything at school.

Israel wasn't created out of war. It was created because of a war.

Saying because of war would be wrong, Israel would have happened even if that war would not have happened and Arabs except the UN plan for a Jewish state.

A quote, from Wikipedia: [I'm using wiki because this is so age old there is no real news/article I can get for you]. Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_re â¦ bia#Israel

Don't use wiki... What I was talking about is many Arab countries signing peace with Israel, opening up for Israeli tourism and more recently developing defense ties. Saudi Arabia for example allowed Israel to build an air base in it's territory, for a cultural example a UAE country allowed Israeli participation in a swimming competition she had recently.
Their general public opinion is strongly anti Israel and even strongly anti Jewish so for internal politics theres nothing as good as blaming the Jews. For international politics they work with Israel very often against Iran and radical Islam. Yemen has a lot of radicals like you say and ironically that makes Yemen even more of an ally because it makes more common enemies, Yemen is running a war in its south right now if you heard of it, with radical Shia Muslims.

I understand they did this, but none of this seemed fair. My chronology looks at it differently. It starts with Palestinians unfairly losing land because of some war [that seemed, to them] that randomly took place in Europe. After them trying to defend their land [and, eventfully losing] they were asked to accept borders.

Also, as to the signing of Egypt and Israel, Egypt also made an oath never to attack Israel ever again. To me, this seemed more as a defensive military maneuver to help better control it's possible enemies in the east without having to worry about a southern attack from a hardly naviatable desert.

For Palestinians they would have gotten almost the exact modern 1967 boarders (30% more) if they would have agreed to the UN plan. In fact in that plan they got almost all the Arab populated areas, strategic control of Jerusalem and the best agricultural parts. But they decided against it, they wanted it all. In history people who want it all often lose it all, they were so exusted from their war with Israel by the time Arab countries arrived with their armies that the Arab countries just occupied them themselves. Fair? War isn't fair but it was their initiative.

The US Media always tells you. Just last week Obama told the people that Israel is our closest ally, in hopes of getting Jewish votes and safety from Jewish lobbying in the upcoming election after a few not so well talks with Benjamin. Also, the media usually says that most Americans support Israel. Also, most American media is Jewish owned, and usually pro-Israel.

I said around the world, as in except America, with what the media told you can you name 5 others fast or do you think USA is Israel's only ally like many other Americans.
And btw, I know some American media. CNN doesn't exactly have a nice view about Israel and especially not BBC or English El-Jasira.

Idk about you, but clearly not Israel...

Exactly! Nothing like a good verbal attack on Israel to get Syrian and Egyptian love. I'm sure they didn't want anyone to die when they sent Marmara, they just wanted a good verbal war on Israel to get better regional relations. In fact, they had a strong alliance with Israel until the Marmara thing. They were from the start one of Israel's friends.

For Muslims not liking USA, you can blame that on Iraq and Afghanistan because USA's support to Israel came only around 1967 but ask yourself what got them so hateful of America before that?

[quote]\r\nNot an argument in this case. Since it's a war on terror, by killing civilians, not only war we contributing to the terror but we are helping in the making of terrorists. Fun stuff.\r\n[/quote]\r\nI'm not saying its OK to shoot civilians I'm saying human mistakes happen and you can hardly expect anyone to avoid them in such a hostile environment.\r\n\r\n[quote]\r\nNo, people leave Mexico at a steady rate. There are 12 Million Mexican immigrants in the USA, there are 150 Million Mexicans. It's not as if they are all slamming at the border. Some live there because they have personal autonomy and a smaller, yet still existing chance of opportunity, something that Gazans do not have.\r\nAlso, I see no proof of Gaza ever turning into a Singapore.\r\n[/quote]\r\nPeople leave Mexico by close to a million every year, the more USA has a stronger economy then Mexico the more they want to go there. Gaza has an even worst economy then Mexico so why wouldn't they try to go to Europe were the economy is around what USA has?\r\nFor chance of opportunity they can always go fishing or try out a new industry but its pretty hard to make a big business when both Hamas and Israel need to agree to it's existence in order for it to develop but it can't make soaps and bombs at the same time.\r\nFor Singapore, look at how its dense, its almost just one big city. I would say in around 50 years it will be.\r\n\r\n[quote]\r\nRight. So instead, restrict their rights and their freedoms [Even though Israel is such a shining beacon of democracy] and lock them away because a few of the people in the region are part of Hamas, a group that threatens Israel. For that, landlock a possibly prosperous community and restrict their freedoms all out of fear that Israel may be harmed. No evil in that, right?\r\n[/quote]\r\nFirst of all its not a small part, Hamas was actually elected by them. Second, its war. In war you restrict the enemy rights thats how it goes. Israel restricts them from importing anything unchecked by Israel or Egypt (the Egypt part may dissapear soon if the Muslim brothers take more power), any weapons or duel-use items are banned. You don't seem to understand what it means if they bring in whatever they want, last time they got an advanced Russian anti tank missile they lunched it at a school buss. Can you imagine what would happen if they had 1000 of those, more AA missiles to make air travel unsafe and anti ship missiles to sink cargo ships?\r\nAs for other blockades, I'm looking a little back in history and you're USA and the West did put a siege that starved Germany and other countries when war came, what Israel is doing is hardly doing anything close. Yes its their basic right to buy weapons from Russia, China and Iran but for now they will have to deal without it.\r\n\r\n[quote]\r\n5-6% of the West Bank. An area that has been listed as 'Militarily occupied' for years, never part of Israel, but he still wants more of it. Also, I read somewhere that the piece he wants is part of the river. -- This further cuts Palestinians from valuable farmland, trade, and prosperity. Israel already gained so much land after 1973, and made sure it kept it. All it looks like is that Israel wants to grow, grow, and grow. Why does Netanyahu feel that Israel deserves any percent of the West Bank?\r\n[/quote]\r\nIsrael didn't get anything in 1973 except surviving another major assault from all its neighbors. For the 5%, as I said before they make the main settlements and the important strategic areas. If Israel would keep the high grounds and the Jordan valley then the strength of the security would hardly be harmed by an independence of a Palestinian state. The river is important because it includes the Jordan valley and its a good natural boarder that can halt any invasion from the East (that seems more then likely to happen eventually) but its not the only agricultural part. The West bank is almost all a good agricultural area that can be used by farmers, the river is an extremely small part of it and the West bank has other small streams coming out of the Jordan river making other water supplies.\r\nbtw, if you're talking about the land Israel won in the 6-day war Israel already gave about 70% of it back to Egypt in return for peace. As for "deserve", I don't think any country in the world which is attacked and almost annihilated should not take land after victory. Especially when the land is used for better defense and because almost any war in history ended with the winners getting land.\r\n\r\n[quote]\r\nPropoganda is everywhere. Americans schools shove down a lot of pro-Israeli proganda, and back in the day they had a lot of anti-communist propoganda.\r\n[/quote]\r\nSeems you also have anti-Israel propaganda. Having CNN and BBC at home seems to me like more then balancing anything at school.\r\n\r\n[quote]\r\nIsrael wasn't created out of war. It was created because of a war. \r\n[/quote]\r\nSaying because of war would be wrong, Israel would have happened even if that war would not have happened and Arabs except the UN plan for a Jewish state.\r\n\r\n[quote]\r\nA quote, from Wikipedia:  [I'm using wiki because this is so age old there is no real news/article I can get for you]. Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_re â�¦ bia#Israel\r\n[/quote]\r\nDon't use wiki... What I was talking about is many Arab countries signing peace with Israel, opening up for Israeli tourism and more recently developing defense ties. Saudi Arabia for example allowed Israel to build an air base in it's territory, for a cultural example a UAE country allowed Israeli participation in a swimming competition she had recently. \r\nTheir general public opinion is strongly anti Israel and even strongly anti Jewish so for internal politics theres nothing as good as blaming the Jews. For international politics they work with Israel very often against Iran and radical Islam. Yemen has a lot of radicals like you say and ironically that makes Yemen even more of an ally because it makes more common enemies, Yemen is running a war in its south right now if you heard of it, with radical Shia Muslims.\r\n\r\n[quote]\r\nI understand they did this, but none of this seemed fair. My chronology looks at it differently. It starts with Palestinians unfairly losing land because of some war [that seemed, to them] that randomly took place in Europe. After them trying to defend their land [and, eventfully losing] they were asked to accept borders.\r\n\r\nAlso, as to the signing of Egypt and Israel, Egypt also made an oath never to attack Israel ever again. To me, this seemed more as a defensive military maneuver to help better control it's possible enemies in the east without having to worry about a southern attack from a hardly naviatable desert.\r\n[/quote]\r\nFor Palestinians they would have gotten almost the exact modern 1967 boarders (30% more) if they would have agreed to the UN plan. In fact in that plan they got almost all the Arab populated areas, strategic control of Jerusalem and the best agricultural parts. But they decided against it, they wanted it all. In history people who want it all often lose it all, they were so exusted from their war with Israel by the time Arab countries arrived with their armies that the Arab countries just occupied them themselves. Fair? War isn't fair but it was their initiative.\r\n\r\n[quote]\r\nThe US Media always tells you. Just last week Obama told the people that Israel is our closest ally, in hopes of getting Jewish votes and safety from Jewish lobbying in the upcoming election after a few not so well talks with Benjamin. Also, the media usually says that most Americans support Israel. Also, most American media is Jewish owned, and usually pro-Israel. \r\n[/quote]\r\nI said around the world, as in except America, with what the media told you can you name 5 others fast or do you think USA is Israel's only ally like many other Americans.\r\nAnd btw, I know some American media. CNN doesn't exactly have a nice view about Israel and especially not BBC or English El-Jasira. \r\n\r\n[quote]\r\nIdk about you, but clearly not Israel...\r\n[/quote]\r\nExactly! Nothing like a good verbal attack on Israel to get Syrian and Egyptian love. I'm sure they didn't want anyone to die when they sent Marmara, they just wanted a good verbal war on Israel to get better regional relations. In fact, they had a strong alliance with Israel until the Marmara thing. They were from the start one of Israel's friends.\r\n\r\nFor Muslims not liking USA, you can blame that on Iraq and Afghanistan because USA's support to Israel came only around 1967 but ask yourself what got them so hateful of America before that?

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