ForumsWEPRShould Israel Exist

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zakyman
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zakyman
1,627 posts
Peasant

The question is simple. Should Israel exist. I know that this subject is very controversial so I am setting some "ground rules."
1. Because Israel is so tied into Judaism, NO ANTI-SEMETIC COMMENTS
2. Please back up your reasoning with facts
3. Respect other's opinions. I cannot tell you how many times I have been on CNN and seen people flinging mud at each other. BE RESPECTFUL!

I am looking forward to seeing the posts and logic behind the opinions.

For the record, I think it should exist.

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GoblinD
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GoblinD
322 posts
Nomad

Some small radical groups from the Jewish orthodox communities believe Israel should only be made after the messiah arrives and that today's Israel should make preparations for his arrival (such as adopting radical religious laws). Nothing more to it.

sprooschicken
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sprooschicken
1,143 posts
Nomad

I see, I assume these people are in the extreme minority?

greethan
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greethan
123 posts
Nomad

A betterway to phrase that would be: "Should Israel be recognized as a country?"

And I say yes. The land was taken over by Arabs and it is Christian and Jewish holy land. Pose this question: If Christian armies took over India (holy land for Hindus and Buddhists) and then when retaken by Indians, India was not considered a country, whose side would you take? Message to the anti-Christian atheists over here.

grimml
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grimml
879 posts
Nomad

And I say yes. The land was taken over by Arabs and it is Christian and Jewish holy land. Pose this question: If Christian armies took over India (holy land for Hindus and Buddhists) and then when retaken by Indians, India was not considered a country, whose side would you take? Message to the anti-Christian atheists over here.

I think everybody on this forum/thread agrees that Israel should be recognized as a country now. You can't take away it's right to exist.

I see, I assume these people are in the extreme minority?

From Wiki:
In 2010 a report released by the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics showed that 8% of Israel's Jewish population defines itself as Haredi, 12% as religious, 13% as traditional-religious, 25% as traditional and 42% as secular, on a descending scale of religiosity.
(Haredi means ultra-orthodox Jews)
akqpars
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akqpars
183 posts
Nomad

Judaism suggests that every other race is created to serve them.Killing,stealing,fornication from everyone is free but jewish.

Armed_Blade
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Armed_Blade
1,482 posts
Shepherd

Armed, you're link is broken and please look at the modern population growth charts, its sinking for quite a while. Maybe the chart you're looking at doesn't show today's demographics.


Yeah, I failed on the link. And the chart was from Wikipedia, West Bank shows as a 3.something [there are three charts, I looked at the UN one], and is ranking rather high in it's percent growth from last year [Israel in the middle, at 70-th position. Most other less developed countries came first, and those that were more developed came later on.

What I am saying is that, though Palestinian population growth is slowing down -- it has been, and is still [in comparison to many areas of the world, even Israel] rather high. Even so, There are less and less people of Palestinian origin within that area, be it West Bank or Israel. So the obvious question is -- why have so many left in the past years?

Also, in just about every country in the world, fertility rates follow a trend. High in the preindustrial and industrial, and they sink in the postindustrial. Israel is a major exporter of arms and other manufactured items, and for that reason, it can be seen as transferring into a postindustrial stage -- but not quite there yet. It's still a pretty young nation, and statistical history of population growth shows that as Israel lasts longer as a industrialized nation, it's growth will shrink. I understand that there are loads of factors, but just as it is with everything, the biggest deciding factor here is money.

And I say yes. The land was taken over by Arabs and it is Christian and Jewish holy land. Pose this question:


Your premise has failed. I think you are assuming that it is only Christian and Jewish land. It, in fact, is Jewish, Christian, and Muslim land.
So your thought about us invading India does not make sense as we, unlike Arabs, have no religious tie to the land -- but Muslims do with Israel.

Judaism suggests that every other race is created to serve them.Killing,stealing,fornication from everyone is free but jewish.


Thanks for your opinion but that doesn't help to answer the question. Are you saying Jewish ideology is bad and therefore we shouldn't support the country?

Some small radical groups from the Jewish orthodox communities believe Israel should only be made after the messiah arrives and that today's Israel should make preparations for his arrival


So these groups would rather have a Palestinian government in the area or do they just support anarchy and religious festivities in the holy land? What solution do these radicals give to the problem?
thebluerabbit
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thebluerabbit
5,340 posts
Farmer

Judaism suggests that every other race is created to serve them.Killing,stealing,fornication from everyone is free but jewish.


wow... you are a person full of hatred arent you? this is wrong. even the tanah sais that its a very good thing to study from not jewish people. where are you taking all of those made up facts from?
akqpars
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akqpars
183 posts
Nomad

Rabbit,We have been seeing them killig on palestinian civillians already,we all know that tens of thousands of russian sex slaves are being abducted from their country and selling out from israel to middle east,africa and asia.

They wont stop the massacre until they get the mesopotamia and holy lands.

Armed_Blade
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Armed_Blade
1,482 posts
Shepherd

They wont stop the massacre until they get the mesopotamia and holy lands.


Hefty comment. Why do they want mesopotamia? Historically, that's where Abraham's son's split, with Ishmael leading to an Arab lineage.

we all know that tens of thousands of russian sex slaves are being abducted from their country and selling out from israel to middle east,africa and asia.


Actually, I had no idea. But... Not sure if this is credible source citing, but whatever, there seems to be stuff on it.


As for the whole killing palestinians, I'd say they've kicked more out than killed.
thebluerabbit
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thebluerabbit
5,340 posts
Farmer

also, forrz for going off topic this will be my last comment here i just have to say something about that. if someone kills someone else in war you cant say what a person he is or that its because of his religion. judaism has nothing to do with other people who arent jewish.

Armed_Blade
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Armed_Blade
1,482 posts
Shepherd

judaism has nothing to do with other people who arent jewish.


That's been a serious problem for them. No offense, but it sounds a little arrogant to say that they deserve a homeland and will only get salvation without any regard to the rest of humanity. It's a little lame that someone believes I was born here just to die when the Jewish apocalypse comes. [Not saying I don't like Jews for that -- it just sounds a little mean]
GoblinD
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GoblinD
322 posts
Nomad


So these groups would rather have a Palestinian government in the area or do they just support anarchy and religious festivities in the holy land? What solution do these radicals give to the problem?

Some of them want a Palestinian state and some others want a heavily religious country that will force religion on the secular Jewish population. Some of those who believe in the second part would also agree to a palestinian state and some others want to kick all the Palestinians away. I met someone like that a few years back and he believed Israel should also invade Lebanon and Jordan to take the historic parts of Israel back. But again those kind of radical religious people make only a small part of the orthodox community.

As for demographics:
Money is a major factor but not the only one. Even in rich countries like post WW2 USA there was a crazy baby boom for example. Gay rights, condoms and obortions all did their part in minimizing the Birthrate in Europe, North America and Japan. culture is another major think because in the Western culture its all about the individual so if he will be happier with only 1 child or non at all then its culturally excepted where in the more Religious cultures it would be culturally seen badly.
Today Palestinians are having a slowly westernizing culture that is another reason for the drop of birth rates.
And btw, look at the Palestinian birth rate at all their times, its about the standard Arab one. Not much higher, not much lower. For an Arab community with no Oil that's actually pretty low.
GoblinD
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GoblinD
322 posts
Nomad

For the apocalipse thing, don't buy it. Its not in the religion and we don't think when the masiah comes everyone non jewish will die. We also believe God cares about non Jews too. When the Israelites escaped Egypt in the bible and god drowned all the Egypt pursuing them, its mentioned in the bible that god told the Israelites not to celebrate because the Egyptians are children of god too. Lots of other examples.

sprooschicken
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sprooschicken
1,143 posts
Nomad

hhhhmm, but earlier in the bible, there is a lot of mention of the Jews being some sort of chosen race, and a lot of that is used as exscuses in the bible to do some pretty awful stuff, although I am in no way implying that Jews are in any way like this today, it seems like if there is an extreme orthodox population as high as 12%, then surely they have representation in government? Surely there are elements of this faction in th IDF? Which would explain a lot of their more untoward actions.

As with every religion, Judaism has it's extremists, but unlike most other religions they have a place where they can practice their RADICAL BELIEFS OFTEN WITHOUT PUNISHMENT, if they can get into the IDF then they can easily use it asa place to kill civilianswithout punishment, and althought these are a very small minority, the damage they can cause to the situation is enourmous

GoblinD
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GoblinD
322 posts
Nomad

The bible does say the Jewish people are the chosen people however it specifically says Jews can't do whatever they want to other people and there are strict laws on how Judaism is allowed to make war (such as, when besieging a city, water must be still allowed in). The radical religous people don't say Jews are a better race so can do whatever they want, they say Jews have more right to the land then Arabs and that god wants Jews to kick the Arabs out. Those radical do not serve in the IDF and they preach that Jews should pray instead of enlisting to the army so that god can handle the defence and not people. Hell they often don't even work and would rather have the government pay for their living while they spend all their time in prayers. They also often protest, make riots and clash with the police when people do something they don't like such as building a road on a place they consider holy (used to be a graveyard for example).
For demographics, 12% makes the orthodox communities, the radical ones make only a small percentage of those people. Like in any other community.

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