No. Just, No. - Armor Games Community

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Kasic

5,552 posts

Jester

Posted May 30, '11 12:44pm UTC

*sighs*
No Avorne, evil can't be "lesser or greater", it's always evil, and a wrong cannot be righted with intentions. The only case I'd consider worth this is an extrauterine implantation, when a child has zero chance at being born, and even then everything should be done to try to save the child's soul, like baptizing him while he's still alive. IIRC a normal procedure in this case involves removal of the fallopian tube where implantation had happened, therefore it could be ripped open to make a child accessible to do the rites. And even then it's less of an abortion and more of a mother's lifesaver. One priest told me that in such a case they do like this, the kid can't last long but can survive for enough to receive the sacrament. After all, the higher concern of a Christian should be the soul, not the body.

Oh, it's okay if the baby dies your way then. I get it.

I'd request help from medics, and probably there will be a caesarean at about 6 months, so both lives might get saved. Anyone else's - hard to tell, I'm not the main controlling authority in such a situation.

You know, you're really starting to piss me off. You'd make a 9 year old girl, who already suffered a traumatic abuse, go through 6 months of riducule, shunnng, and shame, not to mention the pain, just to give birth to a premature child that will probably have no future?

[quote]*sighs*\r\nNo Avorne, evil can't be "lesser or greater", it's always evil, and a wrong cannot be righted with intentions. The only case I'd consider worth this is an extrauterine implantation, when a child has zero chance at being born, and even then everything should be done to try to save the child's soul, like baptizing him while he's still alive. IIRC a normal procedure in this case involves removal of the fallopian tube where implantation had happened, therefore it could be ripped open to make a child accessible to do the rites. And even then it's less of an abortion and more of a mother's lifesaver. One priest told me that in such a case they do like this, the kid can't last long but can survive for enough to receive the sacrament. After all, the higher concern of a Christian should be the soul, not the body. [/quote]\r\n\r\nOh, it's okay if the baby dies your way then. I get it.\r\n\r\n [quote]I'd request help from medics, and probably there will be a caesarean at about 6 months, so both lives might get saved. Anyone else's - hard to tell, I'm not the main controlling authority in such a situation.[/quote]\r\n\r\nYou know, you're really starting to piss me off. You'd make a 9 year old girl, who already suffered a traumatic abuse, go through 6 months of riducule, shunnng, and shame, not to mention the pain, just to give birth to a premature child that will probably have no future?

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Avorne

3,085 posts

Nomad

Posted May 30, '11 12:45pm UTC

*sighs*
No Avorne, evil can't be "lesser or greater", it's always evil,

That's just your opinion and in my opinion you're wrong, funny how opinions work, isn't it?

By your standards that puts all 'evils' on the same level - murder, ****, homosexuality, working on the sabbath... All of them.

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MageGrayWolf

9,462 posts

Farmer

Posted May 30, '11 12:58pm UTC

What in your opinion is caring about life?

One of the arguments of not having abortions and having them illegal is that the baby is a life. However keeping it legal and available protects the mothers life. someone who makes such a decisions such as to abort a child will likely do it regardless of the law. Yet when it comes to the protection of the mothers life you suddenly seem to not care if she lives or dies. I find the double standard interesting.

A really questionable situation,

it should be online some where. I saw it on the Comcast front page a while back. I do admit I may have some details wrong, since I am working from memory here.

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MageGrayWolf

9,462 posts

Farmer

Posted May 30, '11 1:00pm UTC

This might be the story here. This report isn't giving much detail.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/05/brazil-girl-9-has-abortio_n_172273.html

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vesperbot

955 posts

Nomad

Posted May 30, '11 1:04pm UTC

By your standards that puts all 'evils' on the same level - murder, ****, homosexuality, working on the sabbath... All of them.

"Evil" equals "mortal sin", and "working on the sabbath" is not. :P

That's just your opinion and in my opinion you're wrong, funny how opinions work, isn't it?

I have tried to bring Catholic Church's teaching on this matter here, as written in "Dignitas Personae" and "Donum Vitae" papal encyclics. Therefore it's not only my opinion. Funny to be outnumbered?

Oh, it's okay if the baby dies your way then. I get it.

Well, are you capable of supporting a life of an unborn baby in case of this? If yes, then you should do so. As I am aware we cannot do this prior to 5 months IIRC.

You'd make a 9 year old girl, who already suffered a traumatic abuse, go through 6 months of riducule, shunnng, and shame

What?! Where did I say about ME shunning such a girl? About pain - well, it's possible she will suffer physically, I will do my best to ease her psychological condition. And about the child, you are talking probabilities. Who are YOU to say that someone will hav no future? I can as well ask you to consider, will the world be better without your very person.

... ya know, i hear their's some families that would happily adopt a kid.

Some do like this in fact, I am aware of such people.

[quote]By your standards that puts all 'evils' on the same level - murder, ****, homosexuality, working on the sabbath... All of them.[/quote]"Evil" equals "mortal sin", and "working on the sabbath" is not. :P\r\n[quote]That's just your opinion and in my opinion you're wrong, funny how opinions work, isn't it?[/quote]I have tried to bring Catholic Church's teaching on this matter here, as written in "Dignitas Personae" and "Donum Vitae" papal encyclics. Therefore it's not only my opinion. Funny to be outnumbered?\r\n[quote]Oh, it's okay if the baby dies your way then. I get it.[/quote]Well, are you capable of supporting a life of an unborn baby in case of this? If yes, then you should do so. As I am aware we cannot do this prior to 5 months IIRC.[quote]You'd make a 9 year old girl, who already suffered a traumatic abuse, go through 6 months of riducule, shunnng, and shame[/quote]What?! Where did I say about ME shunning such a girl? About pain - well, it's possible she will suffer physically, I will do my best to ease her psychological condition. And about the child, you are talking probabilities. Who are YOU to say that someone will hav no future? I can as well ask you to consider, will the world be better without your very person. [quote]... ya know, i hear their's some families that would happily adopt a kid.[/quote]Some do like this in fact, I am aware of such people.

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Avorne

3,085 posts

Nomad

Posted May 30, '11 1:06pm UTC

I have tried to bring Catholic Church's teaching on this matter here, as written in "Dignitas Personae" and "Donum Vitae" papal encyclics. Therefore it's not only my opinion. Funny to be outnumbered?

Oh please, the high-ups of the Catholic church are pedophiles and corrupt old men, their followers are all sheep - I may be outnumbered but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.

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dair5

3,371 posts

Shepherd

Posted May 30, '11 1:12pm UTC

About pain - well, it's possible she will suffer physically,

It's too late for possible. She has suffered both physical, and mental and will continue to suffer. We can only hope the people around her will be loving, understanding, and that she'll recive as little pain as possible. Question, in the article it almost seems as if she didn't get the abortion yet. Did she? Or was she planing on having one?

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dair5

3,371 posts

Shepherd

Posted May 30, '11 1:15pm UTC

their followers are all sheep

Sorry for double post but, all. I don't think that it's fair to say all. Maybe most, Maybe some. But not all.

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vesperbot

955 posts

Nomad

Posted May 30, '11 1:18pm UTC

This might be the story here. This report isn't giving much detail.

Twins? Pitiful then. Twins supposedly cannot fit into the tiny space existing in a 9yo girl's body to survive to the level of caesarean to be available and result in all three lives saved. 15th week is not enough

someone who makes such a decisions such as to abort a child will likely do it regardless of the law.

It is possible to avert the mother of that decision, it requires love and care for both mother and child, I speak about personal care. Sometimes a woman goes for that from external pressure more than any other factor, and I am aware of organizations existing that help such people to outlive the danger and bear the child(ren), and provide some support in the family's welfare after birth. And "likely" is not "always", however I admit that some people ignore laws if they desire something, so some cases will still be in place.

Yet when it comes to the protection of the mothers life you suddenly seem to not care if she lives or dies.

If a person is informed that she'd have a chance to die, many people will think another time. If provided with a reson to live further, they can choose life instead. And never a society can protect everyone from injuring self beyond repair. I still care even if a mother does a criminal abortion, in case she returns here, she should be cared for as normal IMHO. Punishing for such an abortion should exist, but its severity is not to be determined by me. Many mothers that made abortions have punished themselves already.

[quote]This might be the story here. This report isn't giving much detail.[/quote]Twins? Pitiful then. Twins supposedly cannot fit into the tiny space existing in a 9yo girl's body to survive to the level of caesarean to be available and result in all three lives saved. 15th week is not enough :(\r\n[quote]someone who makes such a decisions such as to abort a child will likely do it regardless of  the law. [/quote]It is possible to avert the mother of that decision, it requires love and care for both mother and child, I speak about personal care. Sometimes a woman goes for that from external pressure more than any other factor, and I am aware of organizations existing that help such people to outlive the danger and bear the child(ren), and provide some support in the family's welfare after birth. And "likely" is not "always", however I admit that some people ignore laws if they desire something, so some cases will still be in place.\r\n[quote]Yet when it comes to the protection of the mothers life you suddenly seem to not care if she lives or dies.[/quote]If a person is informed that she'd have a chance to die, many people will think another time. If provided with a reson to live further, they can choose life instead. And never a society can protect everyone from injuring self beyond repair. I still care even if a mother does a criminal abortion, in case she returns here, she should be cared for as normal IMHO. Punishing for such an abortion should exist, but its severity is not to be determined by me. Many mothers that made abortions have punished themselves already.

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Kasic

5,552 posts

Jester

Posted May 30, '11 1:24pm UTC

I have tried to bring Catholic Church's teaching on this matter here, as written in "Dignitas Personae" and "Donum Vitae" papal encyclics. Therefore it's not only my opinion. Funny to be outnumbered?

Majority does not equal right. People can have opinions, but the fact is, there's not as many truths as opinions. 1000 fools could argue with me that the sun is a swirly rainbow of happiness, that does not make it so simply because they outnumber me.

Well, are you capable of supporting a life of an unborn baby in case of this? If yes, then you should do so. As I am aware we cannot do this prior to 5 months IIRC.

It's not exactly very healthy for the baby, and what I was talking about was this.

The only case I'd consider worth this is an extrauterine implantation, when a child has zero chance at being born, and even then everything should be done to try to save the child's soul, like baptizing him while he's still alive. IIRC a normal procedure in this case involves removal of the fallopian tube where implantation had happened, therefore it could be ripped open to make a child accessible to do the rites.

This is the same as abortion, just with your beliefs imposed on it.

What?! Where did I say about ME shunning such a girl?

Why don't you read what I posted? "You'd make a 9 year old girl, who already suffered a traumatic abuse, go through 6 months of riducule, shunnng, and shame"

You may not personally shun, ridicule, or whatever, but you're not allowing her the option of getting rid of all of that. Instead, you impose your beliefs on her, and permanently affect her life, and not for the better.

well, it's possible she will suffer physically, I will do my best to ease her psychological condition.

Oh all right, just practically torture her, it's all right if you give her cookies and make up to her afterwards. Bull ****ing ****. You wouldn't call it okay if someone forced you to do something you didn't want to, which involved pain and public humiliation, for something that was forced on you, and then just be okay with it after the fact.

And about the child, you are talking probabilities.

A, the child would never know, so it can't possibly feel bad for not being born.

I can as well ask you to consider, will the world be better without your very person.

It's very likely it would be no different at all except for a select few people. I'm not such an arrogant ******* that I think the world revolves around me.

Some do like this in fact, I am aware of such people.

"some" is not enough. Even if 1 in 5 children is adopted into a good family, that leaves 80% of all children either in a bad place, or with no family what so ever.

[quote]I have tried to bring Catholic Church's teaching on this matter here, as written in "Dignitas Personae" and "Donum Vitae" papal encyclics. Therefore it's not only my opinion. Funny to be outnumbered? [/quote]\r\n\r\nMajority does not equal right. People can have opinions, but the fact is, there's not as many truths as opinions. 1000 fools could argue with me that the sun is a swirly rainbow of happiness, that does not make it so simply because they outnumber me.\r\n\r\n[quote]Well, are you capable of supporting a life of an unborn baby in case of this? If yes, then you should do so. As I am aware we cannot do this prior to 5 months IIRC.[/quote]\r\n\r\nIt's not exactly very healthy for the baby, and what I was talking about was this.\r\n\r\n[quote]The only case I'd consider worth this is an extrauterine implantation, when a child has zero chance at being born, and even then everything should be done to try to save the child's soul, like baptizing him while he's still alive. IIRC a normal procedure in this case involves removal of the fallopian tube where implantation had happened, therefore it could be ripped open to make a child accessible to do the rites.[/quote]\r\n\r\nThis is the same as abortion, just with your beliefs imposed on it.\r\n\r\n[quote]What?! Where did I say about ME shunning such a girl?[/quote]\r\n\r\nWhy don't you read what I posted? "You'd [b]make[/b] a 9 year old girl, who already suffered a traumatic abuse, go through 6 months of riducule, shunnng, and shame"\r\n\r\nYou may not personally shun, ridicule, or whatever, but you're not allowing her the option of getting rid of all of that. Instead, you impose your beliefs on her, and permanently affect her life, and not for the better. \r\n\r\n[quote]well, it's possible she will suffer physically, I will do my best to ease her psychological condition.[/quote]\r\n\r\nOh all right, just practically torture her, it's all right if you give her cookies and make up to her afterwards. Bull ****ing ****. You wouldn't call it okay if someone forced you to do something you didn't want to, which involved pain and public humiliation, for something that was forced on you, and then just be okay with it after the fact.\r\n\r\n[quote]And about the child, you are talking probabilities.[/quote]\r\n\r\nA, the child would never know, so it can't possibly feel bad for not being born. \r\n\r\n[quote] I can as well ask you to consider, will the world be better without your very person. [/quote]\r\n\r\nIt's very likely it would be no different at all except for a select few people. I'm not such an arrogant ******* that I think the world revolves around me.\r\n\r\n[quote]Some do like this in fact, I am aware of such people.[/quote]\r\n\r\n"some" is not enough. Even if 1 in 5 children is adopted into a good family, that leaves 80% of all children either in a bad place, or with no family what so ever.

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Avorne

3,085 posts

Nomad

Posted May 30, '11 1:24pm UTC

You're right, not all followers are sheep, it was wrong of me to make such an outburst. It's just that when you find out the Vaticans' paedophilia advisor got arrested for paedophilia - you start looking down on the Catholic Church as being corrupted beyond repair. I can't help but feel that the doctrine of Catholicism is outdated and they don't change with the times which makes the church stale and unreliable in modern matters. I don't accept much of what Catholics say and their views on contraception and abortion are something which I find to be completely out of touch with modern times.

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goumas13

4,752 posts

Grand Duke

Posted May 30, '11 1:27pm UTC

... ya know, i hear their's some families that would happily adopt a kid. so why not just have the kid and let some one else adopt it?

Not all kids are adopted. There is a lot of demand and short supply for white babies, however there is no such demand for non-white kids. Minority kids waiting for adoption are usually skipped over.

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vesperbot

955 posts

Nomad

Posted May 30, '11 1:55pm UTC

[quote]The only case I'd consider worth this is an extrauterine implantation

This is the same as abortion, just with your beliefs imposed on it.[/quote]Wiki states: "Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion of a fetus or embryo from the uterus, resulting in or caused by its death." A fallopian tube is not uterus. Technical miss.

Oh please, the high-ups of the Catholic church are pedophiles and corrupt old men, their followers are all sheep - I may be outnumbered but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.

Too thick.

Why don't you read what I posted? "You'd make a 9 year old girl, who already suffered a traumatic abuse, go through 6 months of riducule, shunnng, and shame"

You may not personally shun, ridicule, or whatever, but you're not allowing her the option of getting rid of all of that.

Ridicule by who, then? The reporters and mass media? I will be able to not spread the word for long enough. And yes, I will teach her that being a mother is like this. The simpler action is not always the right one.

It's not exactly very healthy for the baby, and what I was talking about was this.

Whatever life you can provide. It's less healthy to kill or allow the baby to die anyway.

A, the child would never know, so it can't possibly feel bad for not being born.

Plain wrong. You haven't been killed in the womb to know how a child feels. God said that every time an abortion happens, the soul of a child wails so hard that Heaven cries (from Gloria Polo's testimonial).

You wouldn't call it okay if someone forced you to do something you didn't want to, which involved pain and public humiliation, for something that was forced on you, and then just be okay with it after the fact.

Me? I don't know personally, but I have an example of Jesus who suffered like you describe, to strengthen me and allow to forgive the humiliator. The remnants of this will still be with me of course.

"some" is not enough. Even if 1 in 5 children is adopted into a good family, that leaves 80% of all children either in a bad place, or with no family what so ever.

First, "80% of all ditched children", this does not equal "80% of all children". Second, this is one of the social sicknesses, that we don't care enough for our own children, this might mean that we will die out when those who do will outlive us into the wilderness. And, abortions are to promote this tendency.

It's just that when you find out the Vaticans' paedophilia advisor got arrested for paedophilia - you start looking down on the Catholic Church as being corrupted beyond repair.

As far as it goes, mass media is not enough to see the whole image of anything, be it Catholic Church or abortions. Still these facts are to look closer by both authorities and common people.

I can't help but feel that the doctrine of Catholicism is outdated and they don't change with the times which makes the church stale and unreliable in modern matters. I don't accept much of what Catholics say and their views on contraception and abortion are something which I find to be completely out of touch with modern times.

Well, your views are just that. There are reasons why contraception is condemned, here for example. Do you have anything to oppose them?

[quote][quote]The only case I'd consider worth this is an extrauterine implantation[/quote]This is the same as abortion, just with your beliefs imposed on it.[/quote]Wiki states: "Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion of a fetus or embryo from the uterus, resulting in or caused by its death." A fallopian tube is not uterus. Technical miss.[quote]Oh please, the high-ups of the Catholic church are pedophiles and corrupt old men, their followers are all sheep - I may be outnumbered but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.[/quote]Too thick.[quote]Why don't you read what I posted? "You'd make a 9 year old girl, who already suffered a traumatic abuse, go through 6 months of riducule, shunnng, and shame"\r\n\r\nYou may not personally shun, ridicule, or whatever, but you're not allowing her the option of getting rid of all of that.[/quote]Ridicule by who, then? The reporters and mass media? I will be able to not spread the word for long enough. And yes, I will teach her that being a mother is like this. The simpler action is not always the right one.\r\n[quote]It's not exactly very healthy for the baby, and what I was talking about was this.[/quote]Whatever life you can provide. It's less healthy to kill or allow the baby to die anyway.[quote]A, the child would never know, so it can't possibly feel bad for not being born. [/quote]Plain wrong. You haven't been killed in the womb to know how a child feels. God said that every time an abortion happens, the soul of a child wails so hard that Heaven cries (from Gloria Polo's testimonial).[quote]You wouldn't call it okay if someone forced you to do something you didn't want to, which involved pain and public humiliation, for something that was forced on you, and then just be okay with it after the fact.[/quote]Me? I don't know personally, but I have an example of Jesus who suffered like you describe, to strengthen me and allow to forgive the humiliator. The remnants of this will still be with me of course.[quote]"some" is not enough. Even if 1 in 5 children is adopted into a good family, that leaves 80% of all children either in a bad place, or with no family what so ever.[/quote]First, "80% of all ditched children", this does not equal "80% of all children". Second, this is one of the social sicknesses, that we don't care enough for our own children, this might mean that we will die out when those who do will outlive us into the wilderness. And, abortions are to promote this tendency.[quote]It's just that when you find out the Vaticans' paedophilia advisor got arrested for paedophilia - you start looking down on the Catholic Church as being corrupted beyond repair.[/quote]As far as it goes, mass media is not enough to see the whole image of anything, be it Catholic Church or abortions. Still these facts are to look closer by both authorities and common people. [quote]I can't help but feel that the doctrine of Catholicism is outdated and they don't change with the times which makes the church stale and unreliable in modern matters. I don't accept much of what Catholics say and their views on contraception and abortion are something which I find to be completely out of touch with modern times.[/quote]Well, your views are just that. There are reasons why contraception is condemned, [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_contraception]here[/url] for example. Do you have anything to oppose them?

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Avorne

3,085 posts

Nomad

Posted May 30, '11 1:59pm UTC

They're, again, outdated and garnered from misunderstood biology or silly biblical doctrine - if you have any arguments that aren't grounded in a non-factual, 2000 year old book that has seen numerous edits and changes made to it then I'd be happy to argue against those instead.

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Kasic

5,552 posts

Jester

Posted May 30, '11 2:16pm UTC

Wiki states: "Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion of a fetus or embryo from the uterus, resulting in or caused by its death." A fallopian tube is not uterus. Technical miss.

You're still killing the child, just in the name of god.

Ridicule by who, then? The reporters and mass media? I will be able to not spread the word for long enough. And yes, I will teach her that being a mother is like this. The simpler action is not always the right one.

People from school, kids her age, random people, fanatic idiots, any bully.

Whatever life you can provide. It's less healthy to kill or allow the baby to die anyway.

It's also extremely unhealthy to let a 9 year old actually have a kid.

this might mean that we will die out when those who do will outlive us into the wilderness.

Lulwhat? Do you even see what you're saying?

And, abortions are to promote this tendency.

Abortions promote nothing, people choose how to use them.

Do you have anything to oppose them?

Aside from that they have absolutely no backing other than "god says so" nope.

[quote]Wiki states: "Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion of a fetus or embryo from the uterus, resulting in or caused by its death." A fallopian tube is not uterus. Technical miss.[/quote]\r\n\r\nYou're still killing the child, just in the name of god. \r\n\r\n[quote]Ridicule by who, then? The reporters and mass media? I will be able to not spread the word for long enough. And yes, I will teach her that being a mother is like this. The simpler action is not always the right one. [/quote]\r\n\r\nPeople from school, kids her age, random people, fanatic idiots, any bully. \r\n\r\n[quote]Whatever life you can provide. It's less healthy to kill or allow the baby to die anyway.[/quote]\r\n\r\nIt's also extremely unhealthy to let a 9 year old actually have a kid. \r\n\r\n[quote]this might mean that we will die out when those who do will outlive us into the wilderness. [/quote]\r\n\r\nLulwhat? Do you even see what you're saying? \r\n\r\n[quote]And, abortions are to promote this tendency.[/quote]\r\n\r\nAbortions promote nothing, people choose how to use them. \r\n\r\n[quote]Do you have anything to oppose them?[/quote]\r\n\r\nAside from that they have absolutely no backing other than "god says so" nope.

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