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tiger25691
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tiger25691
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Hell those of you think it will be just a big party with all your friends... BEWARE!!! For it is not a party but a punishment.the worst place to ever be for an eternity a punishment for those who have rejected Christ.[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SD4ZoM2Qh10&feature=related]

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HahiHa
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HahiHa
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He's what I said he was, a greek mythological god <3

Tartarus is the deepest part of the underworld and Helheim is probably the Norse name for "their" part of the underworld. If I'm correct some mythologies state it as a physical place - that's the way I've heard it.

Hades is the name of the god as well as the name of the land where the regular (neither hero nor very evil) dead people go. I meant the land.
Tartarus is a deeper level where those who did something very bad went, I'm sure you know the stories. Theres also Elyseum (at least I think it's named like that) where the heroes go.
Helheim was also thought to be a physical place, just like Midgard, Asgrad, Valhalla, Niflheim, Jotunheim, Alfheim and the others I forgot. Helheim was the part where everyone who died of age or disease went after their death. It was rather similar to Hades (the land). Those who died in battle went to Valhalla to become Einherjar and fight in the battle of Ragnaroek against the giants. Although I'm sure Helheim wasn't a nice place to be, it doesn't seem like the eternal punishment of Hell. For me it seems christianity has the least complex idea of the afterlife: the believers go to a wonderful place and the unbelievers go to an awful place.
Highfire
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Highfire
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Okay, "the derivation of the concept of Hell from Greek" needs proof.

What I am saying is your paragraph above it said a lot of things about Christ etc, but it didn't have evidence or proof backing it up.

I can only say "Christ resurrected from the dead" as the last word. No one was able to counter this.

I'm being picky with your words here, which is probably a bad idea considering how easy that point seems to be countered. Have you proof for that?

How do you know?

There's a question mark, firstly. I don't know, but Hell has not been prove and thus far I can't really say it is real.

Evil is only the absense of good, and is created by rejecting good, thus by free will

Wrong. There is neutrality, but people don't see it. It's this common concept that people say that if one aspect of something is bad, then the entire thing is. People can't take good aspects of somethings and then ball it up into a hybrid of awesomesauce. Absense of good does not = bad. That's like saying if there is no 1 then there is only minus one.
No, it can be 0. <3

and is created by rejecting good, thus by free will.

God does not follow logic - as I said, he can dismiss the requirement of bad to make good because HE CAN.

So, whoever has free will has responsibility. If someone made an evil deed, HE created evil, not God. If you sin, you create evil.

Yea, but God created us. He created us, thus "evil" and "good", but look around, it's not like he does anything. Gods own attribute is Free Will? Well hey, that's convenient. Why can't I say the same for evil and good? He goes BEYOND logic, as it's been debated, and sure, I've argued against it but nonetheless it is the common belief of Christians that he is above all, the Lord. So therefore I'm arguing on your terms (which to be fair I don't know why), and right now there is no reason he couldn't have just dismissed evil that would be required to get good, but still get good. Even so, there's the debate of "neutrality" going on.

- H
Highfire
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Highfire
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Also HahiHa, your knowledge of Mythology seems much more fresh and vast than mine - thanks for the information man.

However, crappy argument - there are different "types" of mythology. In some, Zeus is the God of Gods, and in others, he is merely the God of Lightning and the Sky, correct?

The mythology I learnt of never stated Hades as a land, my apologies <3

- H

HahiHa
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HahiHa
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However, crappy argument - there are different "types" of mythology. In some, Zeus is the God of Gods, and in others, he is merely the God of Lightning and the Sky, correct?

Uh.. I guess? It probably depends on what you use as source, even the ancient greeks weren't 100% agreed on every points. Also there were many cults, at least one for every god, and believe me there are a ton of different gods in greek mythology^^
I am generally basing my knowledge on what we know from Hesiod and Homer.

Evil is only the absense of good, and is created by rejecting good, thus by free will

In my opinion, evil and good are subjective, free will a human invention, and I can't imagine how one can "reject good". But on with my main point:
Doesn't the bible state that in the beginning there was only god? And god is omnipresent. Therefore in the beginning you couldn't have the state "no god", which means you couldn't have evil. Can you explain me then how evil came to be?
If there was no evil, there would be no need for hell. So if one considers evil as subjective, that would mean that there can't be a definite and unique Hell. How would you answer to such a person? (Let's sayhe/she can't be convinced that good and evil are constants)
vesperbot
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vesperbot
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There is neutrality, but people don't see it.
It's possible that I wrote this incorrectly. What's neutrality? For me, neutrality is something you can do that is neither good nor evil, like say playing ball in the garden not disturbing anyone. Whatever good is within you is not harmed by this, so in case of such a deed we can ignore it in terms of good and evil. Evil comes when you reject good, so in your case of "there is no 1" it goes exactly like this, rejecting 1 is subtracting, 0-1 = -1. The question of why is there a zero before subtraction could appear, the answer is that the deed is yet to happen and so it does not have an initial moral value, except when you have to do the deed because you promised or the like, then you start with -1.
He created us, thus "evil" and "good"
No human is initially evil.
So therefore I'm arguing on your terms (which to be fair I don't know why), and right now there is no reason he couldn't have just dismissed evil that would be required to get good, but still get good.
Hmm. I have read such an argumentation before somewhere... it is related to "why God let evil happen". The Catechism states that God wants us to use our free will to do less evil, but to know what's evil we need to know what's good, and vice versa. And since we have free will, we can choose to do evil, and God, while respecting our free will, might influence us in other means, might reduce the impact, or make it result in good somewhere else, this mostly remains unknown to the one who chose and did evil. Dismissing evil in its entirety will require revoking our free will, and turning us into complete sheep and lose our resemblance to Him as He created us. That's why He does not do this yet.
Highfire
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Highfire
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and believe me there are a ton of different gods in greek mythology^^

Kronos
Oranos
Gaia
Poseidon
Theia
Zeus
Haephaestus (probs not correct spelling)
Hades
Apollo
Athena
Okeanus
Dionysus
Ares
Those are the ones I can remember off the top of my head :P lol

I am generally basing my knowledge on what we know from Hesiod and Homer.

Err... well, that has more base then my source <3

Evil comes when you reject good, so in your case of "there is no 1" it goes exactly like this, rejecting 1 is subtracting, 0-1 = -1. The question of why is there a zero before subtraction could appear, the answer is that the deed is yet to happen and so it does not have an initial moral value, except when you have to do the deed because you promised or the like, then you start with -1.

That is a solid argument with the exception:
Evil comes when you reject good

Without that being true, the rest of the argument has no base. Rejecting good does not derive into evil - if I refuse to share my food with someone, am I being evil? No, I am refusing to be good. On the BASE MORAL VALUE, it is neutrality, in my opinion. However, when standards begin to rise, and you have more than essentials, and the person next to you has the less than essentials to living, the refusal to do good could be considered evil. Agreed?

So... what I'm saying is, maybe your religion has a high moral standard in that case that neutrality isn't really a factor. But a fair argument is that actions made by Christians and teachings made by God contradict moral purity.

No human is initially evil.

I would like you to prove that. That, and God created humans and being all-knowing, has created evil. Of course, it was indirect, but nonetheless he is a benevolent and all-knowing being, he doesn't make any large actions to help in stopping horrific acts and furthermore does not give us a perfectly just method of knowing he is there (aka Logic, evidence, proof).

Dismissing evil in its entirety will require revoking our free will,

Or he could make us perfect. It boils down that God indirectly made evil for no real reason. You say humans cannot know good without knowing evil - that's logic, but God surpasses it.

might influence us in other means, might reduce the impact, or make it result in

No evidence or proof as far as I know, that and he does not let us know directly he is there. God is stupid if he lets the whining and asking of people to make him actually do it, it's weak and pathetic, and I'm a lowly human ^^

- H
RainbowGoGangster3
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RainbowGoGangster3
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I agree with Tiger, i mean its not something u should be like whatever about. im sorry guys but if u read in the bible their is a part that talks about hell. its like ur worst nightmares, torture, burning flames, lake of fire + more and its 4ever lots of people underestimate 4ever if u think ur life is long here imagine forever. and we are just trying to help u so plz dont give us some snotty remark. u choose where u belong next to the Lord Almighty or getting tortured in hell. im not saying people who are Catholic are not going to heaven, its just if u believe the lord died on the cross for our sins, there is only 1 god, and u asked him in your heart, and talk to him on a daily baces,u can go to heaven i mean is that so hard?

Moe
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Moe
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its 4ever lots of people underestimate 4ever if u think ur life is long here imagine forever.


What if Jesus defeats Satan after the rapture? Wouldn't everyone in Hell be freed?
RainbowGoGangster3
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RainbowGoGangster3
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I get enough of this from other people like you and not a single one of them has been able to prove Hell exists.

we prove it by showing people the bible and the bible tells the miracles that Lord has done for us, even for u! he cares about u sooo much every single one of us. i mean think about it Who do u think created all of this!? who created the world and us!? The Lord did!
RainbowGoGangster3
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RainbowGoGangster3
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What if Jesus defeats Satan after the rapture? Wouldn't everyone in Hell be freed?

hm I would believe so but im not for sure, because hell would be destroyed with Satan, so they might be free but i have not read into that so much sorry

Oh and just because u have a different Religion that doesnt mean u cant change to Christian God is waiting for u to come to him
Moe
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Moe
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we prove it by showing people the bible and the bible tells the miracles that Lord has done for us


Unfortunately the bible is not considered reliable as a source of information.
RainbowGoGangster3
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RainbowGoGangster3
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oh but it is! it tells miracles and things that the Lord has done, I hope that u will look at it. ( sorry i dont mean to act like a preacher i usually dont haha )

HahiHa
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HahiHa
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RainbowGoGangster3, to take hell seriously one has to believe in it. To believe in such a thing, I would need proof for it's existence. The bible is no proof, it's a book with stories in it. It tells about hell and such but that doesn't mean it has to be true.
Also, let's say there actually is a god. You believe him because of what is written in the bible. What tells you that this is not, like I said on the first page, propaganda for his cause? That hell either doesn't exist, or isn't such a bad place to be? We only have the bible as only "source" for that

What if Jesus defeats Satan after the rapture? Wouldn't everyone in Hell be freed?

No, since christians believe god gave us free will and with it the ability do decide to do evil. So we don't even need a devil for people to be evil, and so they would still be excluded from heaven. Where do they go instead?
indie55
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indie55
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oh but it is! it tells miracles and things that the Lord has done, I hope that u will look at it.

That still doesn't change the fact that people don't always take it as a reliable source. You just said the same thing that the person Moe quoted said.
Avorne
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Avorne
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The Bible is proof of nothing, it is an outdated book of lies, mistranslations and metaphors that lead into outdated and poor morals, until you prove that everything in the Bible actually happened and that the Abrahamic/Christian God exists and is the one mentioned in the Bible then we're not going to use the Bible as anything but kindling and toilet paper.

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