ForumsWEPRHell don't under estimate it.

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tiger25691
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tiger25691
159 posts
Farmer

Hell those of you think it will be just a big party with all your friends... BEWARE!!! For it is not a party but a punishment.the worst place to ever be for an eternity a punishment for those who have rejected Christ.[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SD4ZoM2Qh10&feature=related]

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MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

the evolution or any other scientifical theory is made of so many coinicidences


No it's made up of observations or events based on hypotheses which then are verified multiple times by independent researchers.

As Mage would say, it would be a little like taking credit for opening a revolving door.


Actually I use the term automatic door, but whatever get's the point across...
vesperbot
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vesperbot
955 posts
Nomad

Rejecting good does not derive into evil - if I refuse to share my food with someone, am I being evil? No, I am refusing to be good.
Well, you ARE being evil here, in case you have food to share. If you have less than mandatory for survival, your refusal is not evil, as you have not enough for yourself, although if you do, this will be a good deed.
However, when standards begin to rise, and you have more than essentials, and the person next to you has the less than essentials to living, the refusal to do good could be considered evil. Agreed?
Agreed.
But a fair argument is that actions made by Christians and teachings made by God contradict moral purity.
Actions of Christians can, we are still humans and can fall into temptations and stuff. But what about teachings of God? Leviticus again? If so, the main position of Leviticus is to outcast a sinner from "your neighbors" set of people, then you're free to stone him to death. When Jesus came, He said to love everyone, so this method of outcasting is no longer valid, and all of the death punishments cannot be applied anymore.
What if Jesus defeats Satan after the rapture? Wouldn't everyone in Hell be freed?
Jesus has alrady defeated Satan in Heaven, and will rip his power on Earth from him at the end of time. I am unsure about "freeing those who are in Hell", the medieval belief stated a negative here, because those in Hell have no more ability to choose and their outcome originates from ultimately rejecting God's love. Therefore their sins won't release them. I don't know about whether God will grant them another chance to repent, I wish so, but it's for God to decide.
Or he could make us perfect.
In that case we'll be angels, but God already created angels.
No human is initially evil.

I would like you to prove that.
Who said one can't prove a negative? Was that you? (umm no, that was MGW)
No evidence or proof as far as I know, that and he does not let us know directly he is there.
There's Bible providing evidence for a 1980yo proof that God was walking here as a human. You don't believe this is proof? Okay.
It boils down that God indirectly made evil for no real reason.
I can't provide you a reason why God did that and not that, indeed, and I don't think it will be revealed to anyone here. We can only perceive and come up with say "God wished us to raise from the mundane into perfection and willingly accept Him as their God, which requires trial and error", as I have once heard and probably mistaken in understanding and recalling, but still the true reason is hidden from us. God said "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways" (Isaiah 55:8) so we have to be satisfied with this and believe that all God does is for our ultimate good, as He said elsewhere.
You say humans cannot know good without knowing evil - that's logic, but God surpasses it.
Yep, but we require logic to discern good from evil, along with the basics of what's good and what's evil. God granted us the Decalogue to have a rock solid base, and humans constantly question "Is this really evil?" Ain't it illogical?
What are the chances that this puddle is just randomly like it is?
1.0, because you first fix the randomness and then ask. Now if you give me another picture of the same pool which will totally resemble this one but will be taken in a different time and will not be edited anyhow, then this will be considered evidence.
This is what deism is, the only way there could be any sort of divine being. He created all that the universe needed to self run, let it happen, and left/did not interfere. (I think)
Deism is indeed this, "God made the universe and went away leaving all to be". But this is not the only way of God to exist. Are you familiar with the chaos theory? God's actions in changing the world are as unknown as what butterfly caused this and this, and when, but they have an impact over the history.
Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

Now if you give me another picture of the same pool which will totally resemble this one but will be taken in a different time and will not be edited anyhow, then this will be considered evidence.


You completely, utterly, missed the point of his comment Vesper.

There's Bible providing evidence for a 1980yo proof that God was walking here as a human. You don't believe this is proof? Okay.


A 1980yo book which is a collection of medieval fairytales, subjective stories, botched translations, copied millions of times over, throughout a long period of time, leaves it with no value whatsoever as evidence.
vesperbot
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vesperbot
955 posts
Nomad

You completely, utterly, missed the point of his comment Vesper.
I have already met this argumentation in another topic, when it said "What are the chances of me flipping the coin and coming out HTHTHHTHTHTHTHHT....? And it's what I just did" I have said 1.0, and was true, because throwing coins will always produce SOME outcome, but if one will try to reproduce a previous outcome, the probability will indeed be small. Here it is the very same, but with droplets and puddle instead of coins and letter. When you fix an outcome, and then claim it as proof, you are wrong as the probability of receiving an outcome is 1.0, there will be puddles in rain. So, this puddle has as much proof for fairies as a post-throw written letter has proof of the thrower predicting.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

Who said one can't prove a negative? Was that you? (umm no, that was MGW)


I've recently been proven wrong about that.

Now if you give me another picture of the same pool which will totally resemble this one but will be taken in a different time and will not be edited anyhow, then this will be considered evidence.


Not a problem. Take a picture of a puddle. Wait til the puddle dries up and wait for it to rain again. You will get a near identical puddle resembling the first one.
vesperbot
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vesperbot
955 posts
Nomad

Not a problem. Take a picture of a puddle. Wait til the puddle dries up and wait for it to rain again. You will get a near identical puddle resembling the first one.
Yes, the point is "nearly", while I requested "totally". Still this does not invalidate the main argument of mine, which is "a random process that produces a random outcome still produces ANY outcome".
I've recently been proven wrong about that.
Interesting. Then I have to at least provide evidence to "no human is initially evil". Hmm. But, this implies a question of "what is 'initially' in regard of a human". For me it's conception, as Christian teaching declares, and at conception, one can't concept evil, be it even **** or molesting (an evil act in itself), because conception of a human involves creation of a soul (which most of atheists do not accept as existing), and all souls are embraced with God's love and don't reject it, therefore they are not evil. Also, to my awareness, no DNA tests have been made to check if people are "genetically evil". One can theoretically be a psychopath by genetic disease, but this will not make him evil, only he won't be properly able to choose. This means that so far DNA does not influence evilness of a person, so a person initially consists of a soul and one cell which is not evil by itself. So, for me the matters of why human is evil is reduced to surrounding events, that is education, relation to neighbors, influence of others, etc.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Yes, the point is "nearly", while I requested "totally". Still this does not invalidate the main argument of mine, which is "a random process that produces a random outcome still produces ANY outcome".


It would totally resemble the first one though it wouldn't totally be identical.
qwerty1011
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qwerty1011
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Peasant

Yep, but we require logic to discern good from evil, along with the basics of what's good and what's evil. God granted us the Decalogue to have a rock solid base, and humans constantly question "Is this really evil?" Ain't it illogical?


There is no such thing as good and evil. Everyone has morals and everyone follows them.

I have already met this argumentation in another topic, when it said "What are the chances of me flipping the coin and coming out HTHTHHTHTHTHTHHT....? And it's what I just did" I have said 1.0, and was true, because throwing coins will always produce SOME outcome, but if one will try to reproduce a previous outcome, the probability will indeed be small. Here it is the very same, but with droplets and puddle instead of coins and letter. When you fix an outcome, and then claim it as proof, you are wrong as the probability of receiving an outcome is 1.0, there will be puddles in rain. So, this puddle has as much proof for fairies as a post-throw written letter has proof of the thrower predicting.


I think this also applies to one of your arguments for god where you said what are the chances of the universe being exactly like this.
vesperbot
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vesperbot
955 posts
Nomad

I think this also applies to one of your arguments for god where you said what are the chances of the universe being exactly like this.
It would have applied if I was asking "what chance", but instead I have asked "why".
It would totally resemble the first one though it wouldn't totally be identical.
Oh my bad, I have misworded that.
zakyman
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zakyman
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Peasant

Listen, unless you are able to actually PROVE with evidence, not belief, evidence, that the Bible is nothing more than a book put together by old people, it could only be considered somewhat of a moral code to live by (you know, love thy neighbor). It does not have any other value except to scare little children into doing good. Again, show them proof that the Bible can be taken seriously, and they will believe you.

vesperbot
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vesperbot
955 posts
Nomad

*tries to get the thought off the last post*
You are asking to give you proof of what? That Bible is a true story and true word of God? Or that Bible is nothing more than a book put together by old people? Neither is available.

qwerty1011
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qwerty1011
554 posts
Peasant

^^But if the bible was true it should have left at least some evidence of its truthfulness.

indie55
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indie55
608 posts
Nomad

You need to think about it in the mindset of the time period it was written. People didn't need so much evidence then.

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