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Forums → WEPR → Christianity (no offence intended)
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I am a christian and have been for the last 5 years. I go to a baptist church and enjoy it.
I want to see the opinion from both sides.
Please no atheists
- 74 Replies
Don't forget about the constant attempts to suppress the advancement of knowledge.
Why is this generalized to all Christians. Just because I'm Christian doesn't mean that I agree with all these things. Probably easier to generalize and say all Christians but just remember that that's not how all Christians think.
Why is this generalized to all Christians. Just because I'm Christian doesn't mean that I agree with all these things. Probably easier to generalize and say all Christians but just remember that that's not how all Christians think.
but it is how many of their religious leaders think
Why is this generalized to all Christians. Just because I'm Christian doesn't mean that I agree with all these things. Probably easier to generalize and say all Christians but just remember that that's not how all Christians think.
Shall I put this on Notepad?
Indeed, there are arguments that Christians do not follow that idealogy, but what about if God didn't follow previous Christians' idealogy? If he didn't, he didn't do anything to stop people being murdered in the name of him, he didn't bother aiding those resisting Christianity with undeniable proof. If you follow Christianity, then sorry, but you are siding with Gods contradictory and pretty merciless behaviour (or lack of behaviour).
- H
but it is how many of their religious leaders think
Yeah, every religion has people that don't see the whole picture and think that different means wrong. I'm not sure about 'many', just the more outspoken ones that try to spread hateful word.
Also, Goblin, I'm against ALL religion, not just Christianity. I see how they can and are abused and the gains of such is only personal to those doing wrong, and that any thing possibly achieved through religion can just as easily be achieved without it.
Then what can you give the human nature of wanting to explain reality through a higher being? Thats why we have religion, no other reason.
Unless you believe religions where invented by aliens but you don''t look like that sorta guy.
It wasn't Christianity - it was Christians. Christians followed that idealogy and that's what came out of it.
Ok say, those same European people would have all been atheists with atheist leaders. How do you think they would have treated a 'thinker' who started explaining things by a higher being? The atheist leaders would silence him ofc because he brings political instability by convincing some people that the all knowing atheist leaders are wrong. They just wouldn't call it a witch hunt but it would be little different. So its not the religion itself, its how the leaders used it for their own ends and it could happen with every ideology that could have replaced Christianity. So its not Christianity that's the problem, Christianity is merely a tool, the problem was the people.
May I ask what's your point? It's not part of the debate, pointing them out and say "Well they did it" makes no difference, especially considering the Bible is supposed to be a Moral guideline - and yet it is wrong in oh so many ways.
The point is to bring an example for the same thing happening without religion. Leaders of the middle ages society or any other totalitarian regime always need to show themselves as all knowing and never wrong. Whoever attempts to show them wrong, even if he has no political desires, is doomed to be 'silenced'. So I say the problem lies with the silencers, not the blankets they use to cover up their crimes because those same blankets could be used for good just as they could be used for evil. Their just tools, nothing more.
Wood - Knight
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i understand and to an extent ahgree with goblin, i mean in the middle ages people couldn't and weren't allowed to read the bible, they had to take the churches word for it, however the old testament is about as useful as the a diary of someone who is mentally unstable, well in fact it basically is, much of it is well, crap, and not part of christian teching at all, i have no idea why half of it hasnt been added to the apocrypha
Unless you are jewish
All Jews where and still are tought to read the bible for themselves because its the Jewish way of prayer. I don't believe much of what's written there but it has a lot of restriction against violence that helped develop a relatively moral society in ancient times. Today its all outdated so the user can justify his deeds good or bad with it. I think this applies to many religions.
Why is this generalized to all Christians.
It's not generalized to all Christians.
Then what can you give the human nature of wanting to explain reality through a higher being? Thats why we have religion, no other reason.
We are way way past that, and that even so life is a hugely low chance of happening - hypothetically a non-religious human civilization will by far out-do a religious one culturally and technologically - probably morally as well.
Unless you believe religions where invented by aliens but you don''t look like that sorta guy.
Hm, no I'm not
How do you think they would have treated a 'thinker' who started explaining things by a higher being? The atheist leaders would silence him ofc because he brings political instability by convincing some people that the all knowing atheist leaders are wrong.
If they were Atheist at that time then I can only say they do not have any reliable theory on the start of the universe, and etc. If a man suggests such a thing it would not be out of the realm of possibility for atheists of their time, chances are they wouldn't be considered Atheists.
So its not the religion itself, its how the leaders used it for their own ends and it could happen with every ideology that could have replaced Christianity. So its not Christianity that's the problem, Christianity is merely a tool, the problem was the people.
But in this case the bridge of right and wrong in Christianity is through my third time quoted paragraph:
Indeed, there are arguments that Christians do not follow that idealogy, but what about if God didn't follow previous Christians' idealogy? If he didn't, he didn't do anything to stop people being murdered in the name of him, he didn't bother aiding those resisting Christianity with undeniable proof. If you follow Christianity, then sorry, but you are siding with Gods contradictory and pretty merciless behaviour (or lack of behaviour).
Oh, and I am now putting that onto notepad.
The same argument I feel goes for your next paragraph as well - Christianity follows it if it's done in its name and God does nothing to stop the suffering from these so-called "believers".
I don't believe much of what's written there but it has a lot of restriction against violence
There's also a lot going against many other things which shouldn't be, and quite often the result was to kill or otherwise "unish" them.
Today its all outdated so the user can justify his deeds good or bad with it.
To the user, he is being justified good or bad with it, not the user can justify himself with it. It doesn't allow social development on a scale that is much larger without the Bible, it does not allow individual growth and it provides unstable ground to rely on.
- H
qwerty you really don't help anyone when you speak like that
I'm sure it says somewhere in the bible that honesty is a virtue or something and that was all true.
The main point is that people twisted the religion to gain their own ends, wither by encouraging witch hunts or declaring crusades. Hell, I say there's a good chance the pope didn't even believe in Christianity when he declared the crusades.
No he was a christian who followed the bible
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. (Exodus 22:18) and You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20
Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10
Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16
Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7
Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13
Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20
Any city that doesnât receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11
Then what can you give the human nature of wanting to explain reality through a higher being? Thats why we have religion, no other reason.
Unless you believe religions where invented by aliens but you don''t look like that sorta guy.
You have just admitted that religion is made up. How is a fantasy a good thing? And it was made because we did not have science yet. If when religions were made up they knew as much about science as we will in a say 2100 where I'm assuming science will have advanced a lot more they probably won't have made a religion.
Ok say, those same European people would have all been atheists with atheist leaders. How do you think they would have treated a 'thinker' who started explaining things by a higher being? The atheist leaders would silence him ofc because he brings political instability by convincing some people that the all knowing atheist leaders are wrong. They just wouldn't call it a witch hunt but it would be little different. So its not the religion itself, its how the leaders used it for their own ends and it could happen with every ideology that could have replaced Christianity. So its not Christianity that's the problem, Christianity is merely a tool, the problem was the people.
Well is depends what kind of leader. A good leader would let him and maybe a tyrant wouldn't. But anyway by following christianity people give the tool power. If none were christians then the tool would be useless.
We are way way past that, and that even so life is a hugely low chance of happening - hypothetically a non-religious human civilization will by far out-do a religious one culturally and technologically - probably morally as well.
I don't think were past that, people still feel a need to explain things through a higher being.
If they were Atheist at that time then I can only say they do not have any reliable theory on the start of the universe, and etc. If a man suggests such a thing it would not be out of the realm of possibility for atheists of their time, chances are they wouldn't be considered Atheists.
Whatever their ideology was in the middle ages, even if it would have been total and true atheists, you would still have to silence the thinkers (wither they are scientists or philosophers or anything else that might bring instability to the leaders) because that's how politics of the time went. As I said before, those same ways of oppression are done in modern history by totalitarian regimes. The church in the middle ages was nothing other then an oppressive totalitarian regime.
To the user, he is being justified good or bad with it, not the user can justify himself with it. It doesn't allow social development on a scale that is much larger without the Bible, it does not allow individual growth and it provides unstable ground to rely on.
It does allow because anyone who wants social development will put any religious setbacks behind, wither by twisting it or just disregarding it. People who want to oppress others will justify themselves by religion but religion will not make someone into an oppressor when he could have been something else. At least not often, because most people aren't like that.
No he was a christian who followed the bible
Yet some popes decided to go with doing that and some others. It all depended on the politics of the time of should it or should it not be done. As I said before, the user of the religion chooses what he makes of it and what he does with it. If the religion says something he doesn't like he can twist it with ease, especially if he is the pope.
You have just admitted that religion is made up. How is a fantasy a good thing? And it was made because we did not have science yet. If when religions were made up they knew as much about science as we will in a say 2100 where I'm assuming science will have advanced a lot more they probably won't have made a religion.
Well is depends what kind of leader. A good leader would let him and maybe a tyrant wouldn't. But anyway by following christianity people give the tool power. If none were christians then the tool would be useless.
Ofc religion is made up by man. But its made for a reason, to answer a basic human need.
Its silly to try to imagine our history without religion because in order to take religion away, you need to change humans into something different. Leaders of the time, out of various reasons, oppressed the people and would have done it with or without religion but having religion helped them a lot. The main point, it was not religion that used the leaders, it was leaders who used religion.
For is fantasy a good thing, I say it answers a basic human need and gave light to many lives in dark times. So it makes people happy which is good, evil leaders abusing it is another story but the question of should religion be tussed aside because it does too much evil in the wrong hands is silly because as I said, its impossible as long as we are humans.
I'm sure it says somewhere in the bible that honesty is a virtue or something and that was all true.
Yeah, you can be honest and sharp at the same time.
You have just admitted that religion is made up. How is a fantasy a good thing? And it was made because we did not have science yet. If when religions were made up they knew as much about science as we will in a say 2100 where I'm assuming science will have advanced a lot more they probably won't have made a religion.
This. <3
I don't think were past that, people still feel a need to explain things through a higher being.
It's the indoctrination forcing that. It's bad enough with people thinking we are not past that, it's only because it was there in the FIRST place that we are not past it - another huge setback.
you would still have to silence the thinkers (wither they are scientists or philosophers or anything else that might bring instability to the leaders) because that's how politics of the time went.
It's a hypothetical situation, with those thinkers it may not have been the case - but the thing is, it's hypothetical, so really speaking nothing in this case is certain.
The church in the middle ages was nothing other then an oppressive totalitarian regime.
That followed Christianity.
People who want to oppress others will justify themselves by religion but religion will not make someone into an oppressor when he could have been something else. At least not often, because most people aren't like that.
Look at quotes concerning oppression or "culture", namely ones qwerty1011 has given. How is that not turning someone into an oppressor?
If the religion says something he doesn't like he can twist it with ease, especially if he is the pope.
It is still Christianity. The interpretation of words in the Bible ultimately still form the Christian belief as that is what people follow, shall I bring up my quote again?
Indeed, there are arguments that Christians do not follow that idealogy, but what about if God didn't follow previous Christians' idealogy? If he didn't, he didn't do anything to stop people being murdered in the name of him, he didn't bother aiding those resisting Christianity with undeniable proof. If you follow Christianity, then sorry, but you are siding with Gods contradictory and pretty merciless behaviour (or lack of behaviour).
But its made for a reason, to answer a basic human need.
A reason for life, and to explain the unknown? We can do that through better means now, just that the remnants of Religion has still lingered and prevents such progression for people.
Leaders of the time, out of various reasons, oppressed the people and would have done it with or without religion but having religion helped them a lot.
Again, hypothetical situation but nonetheless, if they didn't have Religion, they didn't have much to go on. Rebellions etc would be a constant against totalitarian rule without the theory of God punishing you on the back of your mind - or that the King was chosen by said God.
but the question of should religion be tussed aside because it does too much evil in the wrong hands is silly because as I said, its impossible as long as we are humans.
We are technologically advanced humans. We've the capability to explain many before-unknown things, it can only go further. The hinderance is the peoples lives and money wasted, devoted to Religious organizations. And the "too much evil in the wrong hands is silly as long as we are humans"... no? That's a stupid thing to say, sorry, but often it pisses me off when I see someone do something - blatantly wrong, I question, and their common excuse is either that showing they lack care "Oh well", or that they think it doesn't matter, "Nobodies perfect". It's really beginning to get on my nerves how people have such retarded behaviour, and it's stemmed from a lack of religion and a lack of guidance by parents. Morality and technological progress has grown over the last hundred years I'd imagine, but nonetheless, it is growing much too slow - something I have to blame religion on, since that was the basis for (flawed) morality and people thinking for themselves is, as stupid as it is to say, new to them.
- H
I want to ask 2 serious questions to all followers of major religions...One, were you born into that religion? Two, would you think that religion is just as valid if it didn't have so many followers?
would you think that religion is just as valid if it didn't have so many followers?
... One sec, finding a quote...
First, Christianity, and many other religions are a cult, it's only that the followers are large enough in number to be considered otherwise. If everyone thought that the universe was made by a big bang, and then a newspaper shows roughly 50 people worshipping a Cross, singing hymns and etc, would you think they're a crazy cult?
There we go, <3
- H
It's the indoctrination forcing that. It's bad enough with people thinking we are not past that, it's only because it was there in the FIRST place that we are not past it - another huge setback.
It was there in prehistoric times. That's the point, its human nature to believe in a higher being. Back then when there was no science to explain things then even more so.
It's a hypothetical situation, with those thinkers it may not have been the case - but the thing is, it's hypothetical, so really speaking nothing in this case is certain.
When you understand their motives you would understand religion was merely a tool. Later on in history science could explain things that beforehand only religion could so totalitarian regimes used other ways to oppress the people. But the oppression of the thinkers was still there. Again, I'll get to the point:
Silencing thinkers is a basic tactic done by totalitarian regimes with no exceptions, not even the church in the middle ages.
That followed Christianity.
Look at quotes concerning oppression or "culture", namely ones qwerty1011 has given. How is that not turning someone into an oppressor?
That used Christianity. Lots of people, and probably most people that follow Christianity today are good people that don't want to kill anyone who isn't christian. That's because everyone takes what he wants from his religion. So the fact that someone is christian doesn't turn him bad. The problem is that when someone is bad in the first place, he can use religion as a powerful tool and someone native that is christian can do as he is commanded.
A reason for life, and to explain the unknown? We can do that through better means now, just that the remnants of Religion has still lingered and prevents such progression for people.
Television also holds us back from making progress, should we stop it then?
Again, hypothetical situation but nonetheless, if they didn't have Religion, they didn't have much to go on. Rebellions etc would be a constant against totalitarian rule without the theory of God punishing you on the back of your mind - or that the King was chosen by said God.
Lots of people still went on rebellions against the church. But help in limiting them.
However the help of oppressing the people through religion can be done by lots of other means such as a secret police, propaganda, threats, etc. In soviet Russia there were almost no rebellions at all, that's how easy it can be for leaders to oppress without religion.
As for the rest, I can't really answer that without knowing this:
What are you trying to say? That we should drop religion today? That religion should have been prevented?
Most of this is about religion did bad things and I agree. But do you also agree it did good things as well? And what d you think should be done about it?
I want to ask 2 serious questions to all followers of major religions...One, were you born into that religion? Two, would you think that religion is just as valid if it didn't have so many followers?
I'm Jewish and yes I was born to this religion. Most people get born into their religions in general. Smaller religions had different ways in explaining why they are small but still right.
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