Forums → WEPR → Christianity (no offence intended)

Television also holds us back from making progress, should we stop it then?

What are you trying to say? That we should drop religion today? That religion should have been prevented?
Most of this is about religion did bad things and I agree. But do you also agree it did good things as well? And what d you think should be done about it?

It was there in prehistoric times. That's the point, its human nature to believe in a higher being.

When you understand their motives you would understand religion was merely a tool. Later on in history science could explain things that beforehand only religion could so totalitarian regimes used other ways to oppress the people. But the oppression of the thinkers was still there. Again, I'll get to the point:
Silencing thinkers is a basic tactic done by totalitarian regimes with no exceptions, not even the church in the middle ages.

Lots of people, and probably most people that follow Christianity today are good people that don't want to kill anyone who isn't christian.

Indeed, there are arguments that Christians do not follow that idealogy, but what about if God didn't follow previous Christians' idealogy? If he didn't, he didn't do anything to stop people being murdered in the name of him, he didn't bother aiding those resisting Christianity with undeniable proof. If you follow Christianity, then sorry, but you are siding with Gods contradictory and pretty merciless behaviour (or lack of behaviour).

So the fact that someone is christian doesn't turn him bad.

The problem is that when someone is bad in the first place, he can use religion as a powerful tool and someone native that is christian can do as he is commanded.

Television also holds us back from making progress, should we stop it then?

In soviet Russia there were almost no rebellions at all, that's how easy it can be for leaders to oppress without religion.

What are you trying to say? That we should drop religion today? That religion should have been prevented?

But do you also agree it did good things as well?

And what d you think should be done about it?

Explain further on this?

Also, i'll accept religion is a good thing...IF, you can give me even ONE thing that we get from religion that cannot be gotton elsewhere aside from that religions particular beliefs.

I'm Jewish and yes I was born to this religion. Most people get born into their religions in general. Smaller religions had different ways in explaining why they are small but still right.

Most people get born into their religions in general

Smaller religions had different ways in explaining why they are small but still right.

That wasn't my point - we're at the stage where we can throw that out the window, saying "It's human nature" is unreliable, a lot of things are natural but even so they're frowned upon or not apparent anymore.
It's because it has REMAINED that it is still part of peoples nature, technology isn't natural, but when you know answers, when it's possible to find out - that overcomes any natural instinct. It's the indoctrination that has kept it there.

Okay, can you please enlighten me on what, specifically, was their goal when they used Religion for totalitarian power?

No, it doesn't turn them bad - but if they knew what they are actually siding with, they would almost surely have a different opinion, but the fact they did not find out for themself and furthermore took the lazy path (which is Religion, getting all your answers in a book), does reflect on them.

And then you get this:

Hypothetical situation but honestly now, what tools are there beyond religion? "Hey guys, in the name of me having power I'm going to reduce, this, this, and that, enjoy.", instead of giving speeches about how God loves them and how they're persist through tough times.

It also helps give progress, as stupid as that sounds. Depending on the people, they can learn different things from TV - me, for instance, wanted to take the good aspects of different kinds of people and be, essentially a "hybrid", it works, mostly, but nonetheless TV does hinder progress for many other people. However - it provides entertainment, it isn't a bad thing, it's the lack of a good thing that TV has, but Religion does force terrible things and the good things in return (knowing what's out there) is actually bad as well. Therefore TV shouldn't, and Religion, well, I can't say it should, I'd have my head bitten off by fanatics, but still, whilst it would take a lot of time to filter out Religion, it would be for the better.

Propaganda - something not so readily available in medieval times.

When you say you're Jewish - do you mean you believe in Judaism?

Even today there are so many things that science cannot yet explain to us and maybe never will,

that's where religion kicks in and its inevitable to stop it.

I consider the churches rule of europe in the middle ages (aside from the Muslim Balkans, Muslim Spain and the caucus), you yourself said how they used religion. They used it by scarring people into doing what they want: giving them money and never questioning them. Well that was the middle ages, today similar things happen in Pagan Africa for example.

Most people don't have what it takes to be the 'thinkers' and that's why religion is so powerful a tool when used in the wrong hands.

I'm not trying to say that religion is something divinely good. I'm saying that today Christianity is at most part, not used in the wrong hands. In fact, most religions today aren't either (major ones).

One way is telling them over and over how religion causes the most horrible sins in the world and that its so bad that every church, synagog or Masque should be burned on sight and all the people who worship a higher being turned in to the authorities. If this is not done then the horrible horrible evils of mankind would flourish and destroy the world as we know it. Sorta like what they said in the USSR.

in most cases its used pretty much properly.

But it is now. Back then science was so primitive that religion's place in humanity was inevitable.

I used to but not any more. That doesn't make me not Jewish but that's another story.

Religious people are yet to explore the possibility. People work hard to discover things and even if we do not find out what happened that made us, it's much MUCH better to believe in something more probable.

Attitude isn't helping. You don't know it's inevitable and quite frankly a lot of people are on the atheist side, it's only gonna keep growing. As much as I complain I have to say chances are religion is dimming down and Atheism or other forms of scientific paths (or less of a religious one) are growing - especially compared to hundreds of years ago.

Ah, thanks for that, but one thing to ask - were the people using it as a tool also actual believers or claim to be?

To be fair, everyone has the potential but enviromental differences between people is usually what makes them different, of course there are genetic differences which show but the main thing I consider "individual" is taking what you know and growing from that, as well as learning / deciding for yourself.

In a completely atheist community I'd have to imagine people who think outside the box, outside the media and generally things like that. Whilst it is still hypothetical I usually imagine most atheists as people who don't take peoples word (especially the governments) for it, they find out themselves.

Although quite badly, I might say
There are some great things on TV but quite a lot of it is bull - I'm not going to go into detail but I think people have their own opinions and I can't really think someone would like whatever they see on TV.

I was speaking in the hypothetical situation that it was an atheist village at the state of medieval technology. Back then propaganda was pretty much nil, and without a strong backbone (in anothers case, religion), any political and totalitarian domination would be exceptionally difficult at best - especially considering what I've mentioned about atheists beforehand.

Yeah I've heard that Judaism is like... half a race and half a religion, not sure how true that is but hey, as mentioned, that's another story.

Especially when they face questions such as what happens after death.

its impossible to take away peoples need for something to believe in because its human nature

Probably some of this and some of that. Its very hard to say but I think a good portion of them didn't believe it.

You just need a very unique personality and mindset in order to question already known facts and go against the flow.

Be id genetics, spoiled childhood or anything else, most people just aren't capable to do that.

I know a lot of atheists that don't think for themselves their just grown up in atheist family and where tout from age 0 that there is no such thing as god. But like I said earlier, even in such circumstances some people might start believing in a higher being.

The unproductivity is kind of what TV is meant to do isn't it?

about propaganda when I said its used properly.

That's mostly because of the feudalistic system that keeps everyone so poor and working so hard that the only thing he can think about is how he will survive the next winter.

I'm not going to lie, I wish there was something after life, but right now there's nothing with ground to say there will be.

The ones that do -- and even the ones that don't believe in it, are they not tainting "the word of God", then? Wouldn't a benevolent God realize this and do something about it - blatantly so people can see?

That is indeed the case, sometimes. I mean... right now, I'm not even an adult, and it appears as if I know more than my mother or father, my mother is fairly ignorant, she doesn't really help or spend too much time - which I'm fine with, but back when I was way younger, it's pretty disgraceful. My father? Well he's hateful, he's always in a bad mood but he did teach me to think for myself and to question things on a logical standpoint.

In which case, I completely misunderstood you sorry.

lol, It's hypothetical - really speaking we'd have to go back to when the idealogy of Gods and etc were first appearing, delete them and go from there. This part of the debate is stretching a bit too far I think.

I'd rather think about what can be done rather than what could

Im not really religious myself but there's this feeling that you know you exist and its very hard to explain. When you understand about you're existence,sort of like you're soul, I find it very hard to believe there is nothing after death. But heaven/hell does sound a bit silly, especially when you understand why the concept of heaven and hell pooped up anyway.

I think they just really believed in what the bishop or whoever else told them and thought that god really does want other people to work so they, gods workers, can be rich and lazy. A lot of people would easily convince themselves about that one.

I'm sorry to hear that and hope you'd be a better father. But I advise you not to say such things on open forums because people can look you up and know stuff about you. A little while ago I was bored and googled my friend's wow nickname and found him telling very interesting stuff about his personal life.

The same way it started in the first place could just happen again because like I said, its human nature to do it.

I don't think it could be stopped so easily.

because some people will always pop up with some divine ideas or refuse to let go of the past.

Umm.
I kind of follow this logic, as much as it pains me to say it. :<
My point is that consciousness is physical, it's not an ethereal thing that makes someone, it's in the brain, and the brain only. Once it dies - that's it, bam, nothing else. :*(

Consider the situations, it's a HUGELY different situation, and yeah, it could happen - but how much would it spread?

It's not gonna be easy, it's gonna take time if it'll work out but nonetheless, I'm not saying it's impossible until it's done.

moral-considerate and hardworking atheists

I feel that I exist as a soul in this body in praticular. It's very hard to explain and its complicated, I hope you can understand what I mean.

the only difference is that it would go back all the development mankind did with religion. Such as making them more moral and encourage more efficiency.

I think there's a limit to how you can stop holy thinking and I can't see that limit reached even in the most industrialized countries for a long time.

Mostly the hardworking part, the moral considerate thing is the part often not done right in religion but sometimes it was (and is).

Think about the underground churches in China or Japan, I can't remember.

I don't think you should be prosecuted/punished because of your religon.

... What has that to do with the current topic at hand?

- H