ForumsWEPRA Question: Why Do You Debate Religion?

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MostlyToastly
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Atheists: What is your motivation? People of other religions such as Catholicism, Islam, Judaism, etc. wish to convert people because those people would go to Hell otherwise. But atheists have no such motivation. If it's because you think their lives would be better if they did not have to pay the tithing, how do you know that they are happier trading a little bit of money for a sense of inner peace and security?
Jews: I could be completely wrong on this, but isn't it against the rules for Jews to go out and try to convert others to Judaism? If I am right, then what are you doing if not trying to convert people?
Christians and Muslims: I think you know that you cannot convert people or change their minds via the internet, so why do you debate?

I'm just curious.

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MageGrayWolf
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Atheists: What is your motivation?


There are many injustices that occur in the name of religion. There are laws we have to live under influenced by religion. We see religious people trying to stunt education in favor of religious doctrine. We see people of all ages being hurt because of such beliefs. This is just to name a little of why.

how do you know that they are happier trading a little bit of money for a sense of inner peace and security?


I think this quote sums up this argument the best.

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than a drunken man is happier than a sober one."-George Bernard Shaw

I think you know that you cannot convert people or change their minds via the internet, so why do you debate?


The internet offers a great place to have a free exchange of ideas and debating is a great way to challenge differing ideas.
Highfire
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What is your motivation?

1) Help others
2) The truth matters
3) Religion often hinders Science in many different ways.

But atheists have no such motivation.

The bettering of another person... I don't do it because someone says it's bad, I do it because I want to see everyone happy with what they are without being blind or over confident with themselves.

If it's because you think their lives would be better if they did not have to pay the tithing, how do you know that they are happier trading a little bit of money for a sense of inner peace and security?

Because the truth matters more. Critical thinking is better than praying to a deity that hasn't been proven real in the hopes that it will help you.

There are many injustices that occur in the name of religion.

The Hundred Years War was based on people wanting to be ruler of France, which was a hierarchy related with Religion.
The Crusades was a religiously sanctioned military forwarding into the middle east, that infact had political reasons but used Religion to fuel manpower.

The internet offers a great place to have a free exchange of ideas and debating is a great way to challenge differing ideas.

That, and a logical person could be swayed through the Internet because it isn't the expression or the idea that refusal would result in physical harm or more intimate confrontation, but because it would make sense.

- H
Snakebite
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Snakebite
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That, and a logical person could be swayed through the Internet because it isn't the expression or the idea that refusal would result in physical harm or more intimate confrontation, but because it would make sense.

Exactly. Adolescents especially. Most are seeking answers that differ from those of their parents. It's much easier to look online, than talking to people.


There are many injustices that occur in the name of religion.

And there are many in the name of science and politics. You're going to make people angry, no matter what you do.
FireflyIV
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2) The truth matters


This. Wilfull ignorance is never a good thing.

Let me ask you a question though MostlyToastly. Does it bother you that atheists debate religion, or that the debate exists in the first place?
Kasic
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Pretty much what Mage/Highfire said. That, and I debate anything that I think anyone is wrong about if they insist they are correct.

dair5
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"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than a drunken man is happier than a sober one."-George Bernard Shaw


While there's usally a connotation of negativity towards the average drunken person. What's negative about the average religious person? Sorry that this is probably compleatly beside the point. I was just wondering, because the way I thought of it, it seemed as if it were saying that being religious is like being drunk. It makes you happy but is bad. Or possibly that's it's a danger to yourself and others.
MoonFairy
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Atheists: What is your motivation

Answered with :
1) Help others
2) The truth matters
3) Religion often hinders Science in many different ways.
Jews: If I am right, then what are you doing if not trying to convert people?

Please elaborate.... do you mean what are they trying to do if converting someone is against their religion, or what do they do if they aren't converting people? The answer to the second one would be living their lives....
Christians and Muslims: I think you know that you cannot convert people or change their minds via the internet, so why do you debate?

Answered with: Most [Adolescents] are seeking answers that differ from those of their parents. It's much easier to look online, than talking to people.
__

The age range on this site is adolescents, therefore they are looking for those answers and they are met with "a free exchange of ideas". Not to mention that most adolescents want to believe that their opinion actually matters, so talking about what they think against what others think, and it formulating into a debate is more or less an unrecognized goal of them.
master565
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I just want to say, even a theist like myself kind of hates a lot of the effects that most religions have on politics and the world in general.

Jews: I could be completely wrong on this, but isn't it against the rules for Jews to go out and try to convert others to Judaism?


Yep. Jews aren't allowed to convince people to join Judiasm. If someone wants to join Judiasm, a Jew actually has to try to dissuade him 3 times before they can join.

If I am right, then what are you doing if not trying to convert people?


It sounds like your implying the only point of religion is to have everyone be that religion, which its not. Why should Jews care what other people are? Jews don't even have the same concept of hell that most people do.
MoonFairy
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It sounds like your implying the only point of religion is to have everyone be that religion, which its not.

THAT'S what I was trying to say.... I just didn't think of such a simple way to state it. @_@

If someone wants to join Judiasm, a Jew actually has to try to dissuade him 3 times before they can join.

Learnin somethin new every day.
hojoko
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Yep. Jews aren't allowed to convince people to join Judiasm. If someone wants to join Judiasm, a Jew actually has to try to dissuade him 3 times before they can join.


First, that's not true. It depends on the denomination of Judaism. To convert to Orthodox Judaism you will probably have to go through that, or something similar, but most reform rabbis will take a convert the first time they ask.

Second, it's wrong to assume that the point of a debate is to make converts. A debate focuses more on the defense and proof of ones opinion, whereas conversion is a deeply personal choice, although conversion may be influenced by outside events in someones life.

Because the truth matters more. Critical thinking is better than praying to a deity that hasn't been proven real in the hopes that it will help you.


But which truth? The truth of tomorrow, that the sun will rise and discoveries will be made, or the truth of eternity, that our souls are kept safe. The second isn't a truth that can be proven or disproven, and so why would you need to convince those who believe the second is true (through religion) that they're wrong?
MageGrayWolf
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I was just wondering, because the way I thought of it, it seemed as if it were saying that being religious is like being drunk. It makes you happy but is bad. Or possibly that's it's a danger to yourself and others.


Wiki has a more complete quote.

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality of happiness, and by no means a necessity of life."

Basically it's a cheap and meaningless happiness. We can gain far more from the sober man then the drunk.
dair5
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Basically it's a cheap and meaningless happiness. We can gain far more from the sober man then the drunk.


Oh I think I get it. Thanks. I agree about gaining more from a sober man most of the time. But I don't agree with the wiki part of saying that it is dangerous as much.
MageGrayWolf
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But I don't agree with the wiki part of saying that it is dangerous as much.


The dangerous part comes from the feeling of happiness that one can be forgiven of what ever wrong doings they have done. To use a modern example of this the pedophile priests are a prime example of this sort of danger.
MoonFairy
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Second, it's wrong to assume that the point of a debate is to make converts.

Hojoko, please read what he said a with a bit more care.

It sounds like your implying the only point of religion is to have everyone be that religion, which its not.

Not only did he address that the way he worded the question was fuzzy, but I did as well. We didn't fully assume anything.

Sorry if you aren't telling 565 that he assumed incorrectly, because this is how I perceived it. Either address the person you are telling is wrong, or then it can be assumed on either side without fault.
MostlyToastly
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It sounds like your implying the only point of religion is to have everyone be that religion, which its not. Why should Jews care what other people are? Jews don't even have the same concept of hell that most people do.
Please elaborate.... do you mean what are they trying to do if converting someone is against their religion, or what do they do if they aren't converting people? The answer to the second one would be living their lives....

I apologize, I should have stated that more clearly, but I assumed that I would not need to since the topic is debate.
Jews: If I am right, then what are you doing when debating if not trying to convert people?
Is what I meant. Sorry for any misunderstandings.

1) Help others

How do you know that you are right? As an atheist, if you convert them, you might just be condemning them along with yourself. Ever heard of Pascal's Wager?

2) The truth matters
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality of happiness, and by no means a necessity of life."-George Bernard Shaw

Let's assume for a moment that atheists are right and God really doesn't exist. Even then, "the truth matters" is a personal opinion. If someone is happier believing in God, then who are you to burst their bubble? You may think that the truth is the most important thing in the universe, but you can't intrude on the happiness of others because you assume they believe the same thing. If someone is sadder being an atheist than they were being a Christian or Muslim or whatever they were, then you haven't helped them at all.
It's like if someone built a machine that could create any reality you wanted, but it was all fake. You could do whatever you wanted in it, anything could happen in it, whatever you wanted. Some people would use that machine and be happy for the rest of their lives, and some people would go on in their real lives, miserable by comparison. That's fine. But what's not fine is when people start yanking other people out of the machine without their permission.
If anyone really wanted the truth, they would be able to find it themselves.

There are many injustices that occur in the name of religion. There are laws we have to live under influenced by religion. We see religious people trying to stunt education in favor of religious doctrine. We see people of all ages being hurt because of such beliefs. This is just to name a little of why.

That's the fault of the people who are committing those injustices, not the fault of the religion itself. It's like destroying the Earth because of ecoterrorists who firebomb medical centers in its name, or destroying the United States because there are a few soldiers who killed Iraqi civilians. We need to address the people behind such things, not the beliefs they put in front of them. Because there are millions of people who follow their religion and are just fine, or even better off for it.

3) Religion often hinders Science in many different ways.

Currently?
I can think of the theory of evolution being taught in schools, but that's about it.
I actually think that problem is pretty simple. If you want to learn about God, go to a religious school. If you don't want to learn about God, buy a book and homeschool yourself or have your parents do it. School should not be sticking its nose in the religious debate, because there are atheists, Christians, and everyone in between paying taxes to fund the schools.

Basically it's a cheap and meaningless happiness. We can gain far more from the sober man then the drunk.

Happiness is happiness, and that's the only real goal in life. If someone is happier doing something and it doesn't hurt anybody else, then why would you want to stop them from doing it?
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