ForumsWEPRA Question: Why Do You Debate Religion?

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MostlyToastly
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MostlyToastly
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Atheists: What is your motivation? People of other religions such as Catholicism, Islam, Judaism, etc. wish to convert people because those people would go to Hell otherwise. But atheists have no such motivation. If it's because you think their lives would be better if they did not have to pay the tithing, how do you know that they are happier trading a little bit of money for a sense of inner peace and security?
Jews: I could be completely wrong on this, but isn't it against the rules for Jews to go out and try to convert others to Judaism? If I am right, then what are you doing if not trying to convert people?
Christians and Muslims: I think you know that you cannot convert people or change their minds via the internet, so why do you debate?

I'm just curious.

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master565
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master565
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Jews: If I am right, then what are you doing when debating if not trying to convert people?


I'm clearing up some misconceptions and because it's intellectually stimulating.
loco5
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loco5
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Happiness is happiness, and that's the only real goal in life. If someone is happier doing something and it doesn't hurt anybody else, then why would you want to stop them from doing it?



not sure what your talking about, a lot of times religions "Happiness" did hurt other people, as mentioned before: The Crusades, The Reconquista, The Jewishâ"Roman wars. all in the name of one sides "Happiness"
partydevil
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partydevil
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The Crusades, The Reconquista, The Jewishâ�"Roman wars. all in the name of one sides "Happiness"


can we convert that to a modern day happiness from oil. and the war in the mid-east? (not assuming anything just seeking for a more today example for that kind of happiness.)
Highfire
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Highfire
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How do you know that you are right?

Helping by teaching critical thinking and a logical mindset allows much better thought patterns and furthermore shows the error in their ways - not the "truth" in ours.
If we're wrong, then we just made TONNES of progress.
If we're right, then we built up through progress to reach that.
In either case, we gain understanding.

As an atheist, if you convert them, you might just be condemning them along with yourself. Ever heard of Pascal's Wager?

Your principles of being a logical / reasonable being rules over the threat of eternal suffering from the hands of someone who is imperfect enough as to give us sufficient reason to believe he / she / it is real.

If someone is happier believing in God, then who are you to burst their bubble?

Someone who is right? Or to be more accurate, not wrong.
If someone has different or contradictory beliefs to my own, I will debate / argue to influence the others opinion with logic and reason. The value of the truth goes beyond the unreasonable happiness of someone.
Especially when you consider that happiness can be obtained through a simply happy personality, something I've managed to do over the course of 8 years.

Self development is significantly more important than being seeded with semi-decent morality, because it's individuality and furthermore no code to go by as you make it.

ou may think that the truth is the most important thing in the universe, but you can't intrude on the happiness of others because you assume they believe the same thing.

I can intrude on someones belief if they're wrong. The allowance of being wrong I think is needless to say a dull one, it hinders progress in any positive direction, the inability to logically work things out, and much more.

If someone is sadder being an atheist than they were being a Christian or Muslim or whatever they were, then you haven't helped them at all.

It gives them the oppurtunity to develop themselves, and not be reliant in what they believed was right which wasn't. From there the pride of the fact that they are not only confident in their resolve but of their own individuality is something achieveable by any standards.
I'm 14, and that took me 8 years. Think of a much more mentally matured person who was almost certainly not in the same position as me, he would hit the nail exceptionally easy.
And furthermore, the happiness gained in that you are furthering yourself as a person - it's the thing I drove on.

On top of the fact that I felt this moral complexity was a necessity to be a good human being.

If anyone really wanted the truth, they would be able to find it themselves.

The thing is people are mislead to believe that what they think is the truth. Religion is everything handed out to you in a book, and "that's the way it is".

That's the fault of the people who are committing those injustices, not the fault of the religion itself. It's like destroying the Earth because of ecoterrorists who firebomb medical centers in its name, or destroying the United States because there are a few soldiers who killed Iraqi civilians. We need to address the people behind such things, not the beliefs they put in front of them. Because there are millions of people who follow their religion and are just fine, or even better off for it.

God certainly went such a way to state that the Crusades were something he did not want... didn't he?

Religion shifts according to ones agenda, condemning it is more than acceptable because it does not speak for itself, but the people who believe in it do.
Considering it SHOULD have the capability of speaking for itself (wise omnipotent one), that is what clarifies this as an act of Religious deals.
Even including the Crusades despite the fact I said it was politically motivated. Why? Because God done jack to say that it wasn't what he wanted, if indeed he is real.

I actually think that problem is pretty simple. If you want to learn about God, go to a religious school. If you don't want to learn about God, buy a book and homeschool yourself or have your parents do it.

People who teach God to their kids don't teach much else, including being skeptical, being a self-developed person and etc. Because all of that is handed in a less refined form. The decisions of religious school or homeschooling (etc) are not your own.

Did I choose to go to Michaelston? Hell no.

School should not be sticking its nose in the religious debate, because there are atheists, Christians, and everyone in between paying taxes to fund the schools.

What is right is not defined by what is fueling it. Teach evolution, teach proper-self-development (which is something I feel a lot of schools fail at) and teach Religion, but highlight the FACTS first, not the beliefs.

Happiness is happiness, and that's the only real goal in life.

And who are you to impose your belief on everyone else?

You, good sir, are quite hypocritical. It's not your decision to define what the meaning of life is, and being as I don't have one defined by anyone else (including a deity), I make one for myself. And that is the same thing I encourage to everyone else - and that is in a way, one of my goals in life.

If someone is happier doing something and it doesn't hurt anybody else, then why would you want to stop them from doing it?

Because even if it isn't a bad thing, it isn't a good thing is it? Advancement at every level (moral, intelligence, physical, philosophical, etc) I think should be there for everyone, and as such telling someone the truth is important in that.

- H
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

How do you know that you are right? As an atheist, if you convert them


I can be reasonably sure of what I know because i have objective verifiable evidence backing what I know up. This is something that is seriously lacking in religion.
I'm not looking to convert someone to being an atheist I want to get people thinking in a critically. This can often lead to being atheist given how irrational religious views are.
As for Pascal's Wager it's horrible flawed as it only would work if there was only one religion that could possibly be correct with one denomination there in.

If someone is happier believing in God, then who are you to burst their bubble?


Thought I was over this argument already? Using the drunk vs sober comparison again "if someone is happier drunk then sober, who am I to tell them to stop drinking?" When that drinking begins to have an effect on others around them. This goes for religion as well. If religious beliefs were brought down to a rare minority or falls into the shadows only affecting the individuals personal sphere, just calling one self an atheist would likely become an archaic term.
The "sober" people see the "drunks" acting belligerent, abusive and putting others in danger and want this behavior to stop. They can still "drink" if they like but they can't do the things that affect others around them in such a negative way because of that "drinking".

That's the fault of the people who are committing those injustices, not the fault of the religion itself.


It's the religion that put's these things in there head in the first place. People will act on those beliefs and when those beliefs are irrational it can leave an otherwise rational person doing irrational things.

I can think of the theory of evolution being taught in schools, but that's about it.


The theory of evolution being attacked by religious views is only the tip of the iceberg of this sort of behavior. Numerous scientific advancements were suppress or hindered because of religion, particularly when religion held more political power.


School should not be sticking its nose in the religious debate, because there are atheists, Christians, and everyone in between paying taxes to fund the schools.


It's not, it's the religious trying to insert there beliefs into the schools.
supremzach
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supremzach
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Nomad

why are all of these religious threads popping up was it my disproving evolution with zach and friends?

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

why are all of these religious threads popping up was it my disproving evolution with zach and friends?


No your not that special. These sorts of topics always come up as it's a hotly debated subject.
Wikiwikiweb
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Wikiwikiweb
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No your not that special.

Yes we are Mage. We are all special in some way. Like you in your fight for evolution and athiesm. Or me in believing in christianity and other things.
hojoko
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hojoko
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It sounds like your implying the only point of religion is to have everyone be that religion, which its not.


Sorry, that's not what I meant at all, and I'm a bit confused how you got that impression, but it's probably just me forgetting to pay attention to something. I was saying that the purpose of a debate seems to focus more on defense of personal beliefs and exploration of ideas rather than making any converts.

Because even if it isn't a bad thing, it isn't a good thing is it? Advancement at every level (moral, intelligence, physical, philosophical, etc) I think should be there for everyone, and as such telling someone the truth is important in that.


Is forcing someone to give up their personal beliefs because you don't agree with them advancement on a moral level? It sounds like that would just be repeating the forced conversions to religion, which seems to be something many atheists claim as one of the greatest evils of many religions.
master565
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master565
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Yes we are Mage. We are all special in some way.


That wasn't his point.

Or me in believing in christianity and other things.


You along with the other 2 billion christians (or whatever number they're at today).
Wikiwikiweb
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Wikiwikiweb
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cool 565. i'm proud of that. and so are the many others

Highfire
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Highfire
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Nomad

Is forcing someone to give up their personal beliefs because you don't agree with them advancement on a moral level?

Sorry, I didn't realize I was in the habit of forcing my beliefs on people. O.o

It sounds like that would just be repeating the forced conversions to religion,

At which point exactly?

which seems to be something many atheists claim as one of the greatest evils of many religions.

Except I've good reason to distrust or dislike someone for being religious. I won't be like that if they're generally good people, but all God all the time people I can't manage with because it's simply not them as their own.

If they want to stick with their religion and not dabble into beliefs, that's fine with me. If they do want to, then it would be a door opened that can't really be shut, because it sheds light on their character and if they can't accept that it isn't a feasable conclusion... what can they actually grasp?

Yes we are Mage. We are all special in some way. Like you in your fight for evolution and athiesm. Or me in believing in christianity and other things.

In these forums a single word makes a big difference, generally.
No your not that special.

^^

- H
Wikiwikiweb
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Wikiwikiweb
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Nomad

It sounds like that would just be repeating the forced conversions to religion,

Conversions aren't forced. We all have free will. You convert by choice. It's not like the spanish inquisition or the spanish in the 1500's are around anymore. Now Christians don't really force conversions, it's the choice of the person. The Christians are just proud if they just minister about jesus to others, even if they don't listen or give a crap.
Highfire
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Highfire
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Nomad

Conversions aren't forced. We all have free will. You convert by choice.

Not necessarily. There are situations where you're born into a religion (or possibly atheism) and indoctrinated with a set of beliefs that were unfairly put into your mind as a child, that has you grow into that set of ideals.

When it comes to adults? Definitely comes to free will, but one of the main reasons religion carries on even now is simply because those who still follow it teach their kids to as well.

- H
Kasic
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Kasic
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Conversions aren't forced.


Well when I told my parents I didn't believe in God, my Dad flat out told me I'd go to hell if I didn't. I'd say that's a form of forcing. Not to mention I was literally forced to go to church every sunday until I was 11 and do all the stuff there.
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