NOTE: This is not an anti religion post, simply a philosophical and age old debate.
Ok, so very very basically, here is an issue with the typical Christian view of God, a view shared by other religions, aside, however.
God is all good God is all powerful (omnipotent) God is all knowing
If God is all good, then why does he make evil things happen? Why does he create murderers and tsunamis?
Some say God creates us with the choice to do good and bad that we may have free will.
So, in this case God creates us without knowing if we'll choose to be good or bad people, or even if we will believe in him/her.
So God doesn't know if we're going to be good or bad, so God is not all knowing.
BUT - Imagine we still want to hold that he his all knowing, i.e he knows everything about everything. This means God creates us knowing that we're going to be good or bad people, this means that he condemns those he creates bad to a life of sin and ultimately hell, so he can't be all Good.
BUT - if we want to still hold that he is all good, then there must be another reason murderers and tsunamis exist, but what? Maybe God created the world, and is not powerful enough to intervene. Then God is no longer all-powerful. Either that or he is powerful enough to intervene, and simply doesn't want to, in which case he is not all good. What do you think about all this?
I do when you're supposedly punished for not doing so.
Perhaps it's actually the rebel who is childish for refusing to worship God? The Bible says that all things were made by Jesus and for Jesus.
So I suppose you believe homosexuality is a choice?
Yes, I do. Even if theoretically some people have homosexual environmental or genetic inclinations, they have the ability to resist those inclinations, just like someone with violent or alcoholic inclinations.
Do we really have to go over this again? This is the equivilant of leaving two young children in a room and then placing a gun on the table, pointing it out to them and saying, "Don't touch this" with no further explanation, then leaving, then comes along sadistic brother telling them that daddy said it was okay to play with it.
Of course, you could play with everything else in the room. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was the only thing that was off limits in the whole creation. When one spells out what Eve chose to do, it highlights what a foolish choice she made. Satan was insisting that God was dishonest. However, God made Eve's mind. If God was dishonest, then Eve would have no reason to trust her sensual perceptions or logical processes. Therefore, she should have trusted God's word instead of her own empirical ability.
An all powerful God really can't just proclaim that your sins are gone if you repent, he has to have a sacrifice?
Grace is costly. A judge would not forgive a murderer just because he apologizes; justice must be serve. Justice and mercy are both fulfilled in Jesus.
So when God kills every person on the earth except for Noah and his family and two of each animal, that's love and mercy?
When the cities of Sodom and Gommorah have hellfire rained onto them, that's love and mercy?
When he punishes Job because Satan says Job only loves God for the things he has given him, that's love and mercy?
When he kills the first born child of every egyptian family for the crimes of the ruling elite, that's love and mercy?
Yes; God's love and mercy are highlighted in each of those accounts. God did not have to provide a way of deliverance. The Bible says that Noah was a preacher of righteousness; it's likely that anyone that would have heeded Noah's message would have been able to board the Ark with him and be saved. In the case of Sodom and Gommorah, it's clear that the people were not being punished for one isolated act. The people were thoroughly wicked; rapists, homosexuals, and surely worse. Better to destroy them than allow their self-destruction to continue. In Job's case, Job comes away with a firmer faith and all he had lost restored. As for the Egyptians, if you remember, the death of the firstborns were after 9 other warnings and the verbal warnings of Moses.
You were born a Christian I am guessing
I was not born a Christian, but an argument's source is really irrelevant to its truth.
Thinkers throughout the ages of considered the Bible in its entirety and found it to be beautiful and lovingâ"Old Testament accounts included. Your own anger and prejudice prevents you from seeing God's mercy and lovingkindness.
Perhaps it's actually the rebel who is childish for refusing to worship God?
Perhaps it's just childish in the first place to require people to worship you?
Yes, I do. Even if theoretically some people have homosexual environmental or genetic inclinations, they have the ability to resist those inclinations, just like someone with violent or alcoholic inclinations.
But God made them that way. Why would God make them attracted to the same sex if it's a sin?
Of course, you could play with everything else in the room.
That's not the point. You're leaving a lethal weapon in the reach of children who do not know any better and are then further told it's alright.
When one spells out what Eve chose to do, it highlights what a foolish choice she made
How would she know it was wrong? She wouldn't have known what a lie is, she hadn't yet eaten the fruit. That's like blaming the kid for pulling the trigger and killing his brother because their father left the gun directly in their reach and didn't even at the very least explain what it did.
A judge would not forgive a murderer just because he apologizes
A Judge is not claiming to be all loving, all powerful, and all knowing.
Justice and mercy are both fulfilled in Jesus.
In one word: Bull. God could, if he wanted to, just absolve people of their sins if they repent. If he's truly all powerful he wouldn't need such a barbaric sacrifice.
Yes; God's love and mercy are highlighted in each of those accounts
Seriously? Seriously? You've either been so brainwashed you can't see straight or you're in denial. None of those situations can be construed in any way to be merciful or loving.
Better to destroy them than allow their self-destruction to continue
What happened to free will?
the death of the firstborns were after 9 other warnings and the verbal warnings of Moses.
I don't recall Moses or God telling the people of Egypt, they only told the Pharoh and those in attendence.
an argument's source is really irrelevant to its truth.
If it can be verified. Even if a crazy old man who's drunk comes wandering down the street and says he has a dog that can play basketball doesn't mean anyone will believe him unless he shows them it.
Thinkers throughout the ages of considered the Bible in its entirety and found it to be beautiful and loving" Old Testament accounts included.
You seem to have misunderstood my point somewhat, Somewhat. It's not that he's judging us, it's that he's allowing us to judge ourselves, to reflect and exert our free will in that we can learn from our mistakes, or continue taking the fall, and the consequences that follow.
God does not need anything; but God deserves to be worshiped by everyone for who He is. God does want us to worship him, but you have no grounds for saying that's childish.
Well, that sounds very pompous.
That's not malicious. God gave Adam and Eve everything they needed to live in peace with God, creation, and each other forever. Their own choice to rebel made the world the way it is.
That doesn't even come close to answering the question.
If you do not like the idea of justice, that would seem like a psychological problem.
I don't like the "justice" as we see in the Bible. It's not proportional to the crime. Not to mention it's God who decided what is and is not a sin.
I love you, Mage, and I beg you to put down your stubbornness and examine the Scriptures.
I do study the Bible, that's why I have so much contempt for the character God. As for the love thing, save it. I find such "love" to be empty.
There is life and truth there that you do not want to see it because you blame God for your hurt and bondage.
HAHAHAHAHA...! Oh, your serious. I find the religion to be very non nonsensical and very illogical, filled with contradiction, disproven claims, and unreasonable requirements.
Remember that through any conversation we're bound to have in the future, my goal is not to win an intellectual jousting match with you. I get nothing from this.
Perhaps it's just childish in the first place to require people to worship you?
You forget that God created us and knows what is best. All humans worship; it's our nature. If we do not worship the true God, we are bound to worship some idol or another, and God knows how destructive that can be to us and those around us.
But God made them that way. Why would God make them attracted to the same sex if it's a sin?
Any homosexual inclination is a result of the fact that the world is fallen and cursed from its original perfect state. The responsibility is still on the individual to choose right over wrong.
That's not the point. You're leaving a lethal weapon in the reach of children who do not know any better and are then further told it's alright.
Actually, Adam and Eve were developed mentally, emotionally, and physically. They were not children. They DID know better; God told them that they would die if they ate it. Adam and Eve were perfectly capable of understanding this by design; they had a perfect knowledge of their language, including their word for death. Eating the fruit did not suddenly allow them to define words like 'lie' or 'die'. It gave them personal familiarity with evil. Adam and Eve were very much adults, and God did not allow them to be tempted beyond what they could resist. God told them exactly what eating the fruit would do, but they did it anyway because they made themselves the judges of God; which is asinine when you think about it.
In one word: Bull. God could, if he wanted to, just absolve people of their sins if they repent. If he's truly all powerful he wouldn't need such a barbaric sacrifice.
God is "Holy, holy, holy." He is just and cannot allow evil to go unpunished. The price had to be paid. He paid it. Is justice offensive to you?
What happened to free will?
No where to God promise that we could do all we want with no consequences. God intervenes and history and does not have to ask for anyone's permission to do it. God's punishment does not negate free will, it highlights it.
I don't like the "justice" as we see in the Bible. It's not proportional to the crime. Not to mention it's God who decided what is and is not a sin.
Clearly, now, we can come to the root of the issue. What is your idea of justice and morality, and why? How much punishment is too much? What crimes should be punished? What is right and wrong? Tell us about your morality and your justice.
Clearly, now, we can come to the root of the issue. What is your idea of justice and morality, and why? How much punishment is too much? What crimes should be punished? What is right and wrong? Tell us about your morality and your justice.
Actually your not really getting to the root of the issue. Well eternal torment for one sure isn't what I would regard as justice for even the most grievous of transgressions done here. One Biblical passage has kid (sometime regarded as teens but that's besides the point) being mauled by bears for making fun of a guy, again excessive. I wouldn't regard mass genocide a just or moral action either, regardless of the reasons behind it. Killing children because the ruler of the land doesn't listen is also in my book of immoral actions. Actually for an all powerful being any requirement of killing is excessive and uncalled for, regardless of the reason behind it.
All humans worship; it's our nature. If we do not worship the true God, we are bound to worship some idol or another, and God knows how destructive that can be to us and those around us.
It is not human nature to worship. There's nothing that I worship. Same for every other non-religious person in the world.
You forget that God created us and knows what is best
"God" supposedly gave us free will and minds to think, I say we use them. Instead of blindly following, I'm going to question these horrible deeds "God" has done in the name of "Mercy" and "Love."
Actually, Adam and Eve were developed mentally, emotionally, and physically. They were not children. They DID know better; God told them that they would die if they ate it. Adam and Eve were perfectly capable of understanding this by design; they had a perfect knowledge of their language, including their word for death. Eating the fruit did not suddenly allow them to define words like 'lie' or 'die'. It gave them personal familiarity with evil. Adam and Eve were very much adults, and God did not allow them to be tempted beyond what they could resist. God told them exactly what eating the fruit would do, but they did it anyway because they made themselves the judges of God; which is asinine when you think about it.
Even if you want to argue this, there's still one thing that flies in your face no matter what.
God made the tree and put it there. A benevolent god would have no reason to do this.
Is justice offensive to you?
No, however God's sense of justice seems to be perverted and out of proportion. When people are mauled by bears for calling someone bald, that's a problem.
God's punishment does not negate free will, it highlights it.
That's bull. You don't have free will when someone is holding a gun to your head and says, "You can do whatever you want"
What about how god can't be around sinners? That's a need.
Jesus Christ is the son of God and is God.
So why do we have to name this new character, jesus christ, if he already has a name, god? Also it seems that if god is only one person, than the son could just be a wrong statement and is actualy just god going down there in a body.
That's not malicious. God gave Adam and Eve everything they needed to live in peace with God, creation, and each other forever. Their own choice to rebel made the world the way it is.
But did god tell adam and eve that that was the tree of whatever it was? No all he did was say "I gave you all this, EVERYTHING is yours, oh yea, except for that tree, don't eat from it."
someone has to pay the price for that, and the price is death
It makes god sound petty if he can't let things go and instead has to pretty much get vengence on all the sinners.
An all powerful God really can't just proclaim that your sins are gone if you repent, he has to have a sacrifice?
It's not even a sacrifice if he is just going down to earth and comming back up agian.
The Bible says that all things were made by Jesus and for Jesus.
Don't you mean god, not jesus? As I understand it, jesus was made by god after he sent himself down onto earth.
You forget that God created us and knows what is best. All humans worship; it's our nature. If we do not worship the true God, we are bound to worship some idol or another, and God knows how destructive that can be to us and those around us.
I guess you could say that everyone worships somethng, but not to the degree of praying to the idol or something.
Even if you want to argue this, there's still one thing that flies in your face no matter what. God made the tree and put it there. A benevolent god would have no reason to do this.
I agree, it seems more like god put that there because he knew that they would be tempted, he wanted them to be flawed. You could say that he wasn't trying to trap them, but then I'll say this, he already KNOWS they are going to do it before he makes them or the tree, he knows everything that is going to happen, so why not just prevent that from happining if it's such a horrible thing to do?
That's bull. You don't have free will when someone is holding a gun to your head and says, "You can do whatever you want"
You could say that it still gies you a choice, but one choice is VERY tempting to choose.
You forget that God created us and knows what is best. All humans worship; it's our nature. If we do not worship the true God, we are bound to worship some idol or another, and God knows how destructive that can be to us and those around us.
This brings up how your using the term worship. Here are the definitions for worship.
1.reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred. 2.formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning. 3.adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success. 4.the object of adoring reverence or regard. 5.(initial capital letter) British. a title of honor used in addressing or mentioning certain magistrates and others of high rank or station (usually preceded by Your, His, or Her). verb (used with object) 6.to render religious reverence and homage to. 7.to feel an adoring reverence or regard for (any person or thing)
Now if you mean like 1, 2 or 6 then no we don't all worship. If you mean something more along the lines of 3, 4 or 7 then sure I could maybe agree here. Though I don't see how that is oh so destructive. I can see how the former grouping could be destructive and I see it in your very beliefs along with others.
It's clear that the Bible teaches that anything that replaces God as most important in your life is an idol. So yes, excessive reverence or regard seems like a fair definition, although I might substitute the word "devotion," as in, "devotion to business success."
So why do we have to name this new character, jesus christ, if he already has a name, god? Also it seems that if god is only one person, than the son could just be a wrong statement and is actualy just god going down there in a body.
Because Jesus Christ is God, but not the Father. From Scripture we can tell that the God of the Bible is one God in three Persons. The Father is God, the Son (Jesus Christ) is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. All three are self-existent and eternal and possess the attributes of God. However, the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father.
The event involving the bears is worth commenting on. Although the King James Version Bible says that "little children" were mocking Elisha, the original Hebrew indicates that these were young men, comparable to a modern street gang. Their comments toward Elisha reveal a contemptuous attitude toward him and toward God; by pointing out Elisha's baldness, the youths were probably referring to the fact that lepers shaved their heads. It is possible that Elisha was in veritable danger, and if forty two were killed, how many were there total?
God made the tree and put it there. A benevolent god would have no reason to do this.
You seem to have a misunderstanding about the nature of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This was not a dark, looming tree with magical/poisonous fruit. The knowledge of good and evil was not inherent in the fruit. Rather, the tree was forbidden because God told Adam and Eve not to eat from it. Their disobedience in eating gave them firsthand experience (knowledge) of evil.
What about how god can't be around sinners? That's a need.
God does not need to not be around sinners. God's judgment prevents Him from excusing evil. There are things that God cannot do precisely because of who He is. God cannot lie. God cannot pervert justice.
It would seem the problem is that you disagree with God regarding the seriousness of sin; you don't think it's that big a deal. Mage, you seem to think that no sin is worthy of the death penalty, and certainly not eternal death. How would you know that? How did you decide that is right? Intuition?
Yes God can, it's even stated in your own Bible, go look it up.
God cannot pervert justice.
Considering what is regarded as God's justice it seems pretty perverted to me.
How did you decide that is right? Intuition?
Compassion and and looking at the situation from a reasonable standpoint. We have what 100 years max here? Let's go Biblical bs and say 1000 years max. That is nothing compared to infinity. It would be like burning someone with a lit cigarette every minute for the rest of his life for spilling milk when he was a baby.
A crime against an infinite God deserves an infinite punishment. You do not want to think that your sin is as serious as God says it is, so you deny God's existence instead of accepting His forgiveness.
