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Rorscach00
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Rorscach00
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Nomad

NOTE: This is not an anti religion post, simply a philosophical and age old debate.

Ok, so very very basically, here is an issue with the typical Christian view of God, a view shared by other religions, aside, however.

God is all good
God is all powerful (omnipotent)
God is all knowing

If God is all good, then why does he make evil things happen? Why does he create murderers and tsunamis?

Some say God creates us with the choice to do good and bad that we may have free will.

So, in this case God creates us without knowing if we'll choose to be good or bad people, or even if we will believe in him/her.

So God doesn't know if we're going to be good or bad, so God is not all knowing.

BUT - Imagine we still want to hold that he his all knowing, i.e he knows everything about everything. This means God creates us knowing that we're going to be good or bad people, this means that he condemns those he creates bad to a life of sin and ultimately hell, so he can't be all Good.

BUT - if we want to still hold that he is all good, then there must be another reason murderers and tsunamis exist, but what? Maybe God created the world, and is not powerful enough to intervene. Then God is no longer all-powerful. Either that or he is powerful enough to intervene, and simply doesn't want to, in which case he is not all good.
What do you think about all this?

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AfterBurner0
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AfterBurner0
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Nomad

Sorry I was gone for a while.

So the man wanting to kill his family is no longer making a decision for himself because he heard an argument that convinces him to take another path?


A man can argue to change the free will of a man. But if you were a god, and you argued a man. You as a god will not let your argument fail to change his feelings. Thus diminishing the man's free will. Thus, it is the same thing as just possessing the man and making him not kill the family.

God kicked Adam and Eve out of Eden to prevent them from eating from the tree of life


God kicked them out because they disobeyed Him. God did not alter their free will. You may say, "But they still willed to stay in the garden." But just because you will something doesn't mean it has to come true. You or I could use our free will to wish to have 1 million dollars, but it will not come true.

Global flood killing most of the planet because of what most people were choosing to do


This example is simple punishment, not alteration of free will.

Hardening of the Pharaohs heart in the Moses story


Exodus 9:34 "When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder stopped, He and his officials hardened their hearts." They hardened their own hearts, God just predicted it.

Preventing people from being able to build the tower of Babel


Once again, simple punishment. Or maybe a hindrance from building the tower. They can still have the free will and ability to make the tower, but it would just be more difficult.

(if just talking with someone is interfering then...) Handing down the commandments


The commandments are simply laws that people have the option of following. Once again not influencing of free will.

Having Jesus spread his message


Jesus never altered free will. He influenced the choice of following Him. You may say "But you said influencing is altering of free will." Wrong. Jesus just made the choices clear. Follow Me, or don't follow Me. In the example of the man who is about to murder the family, you as a god would be talking to him, but with the ultimate goal of convincing him, which means he won't have the free will to continue with his plan of killing his family. When Jesus spread His message, people still had the choice to reject Him.

No but I would have had nothing to do with the creation of that movie unlike God. But still what happens in that movie is immutable. It would be like destroying part of the movie fro what happened in it, even though that part can't happen any other way.


The movie may be immutable, but it is an improv movie, The "actors" make it up as they go and God has already seen the movie before, so he simply knows the outcome, He did not influence it.

The will of the family would likely to want to stay alive. So allowing the man to continue with his free will he denies the free will of the family.


Like I have already mentioned, just because someone wills something, doesn't mean it is going to be the assured outcome.
BladeBreaker
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BladeBreaker
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Brithennerz, define evil. Do you believe that satan is evil incarnate? If so, then the counter to your argument is that God sees the need for evil to exist as a temptation to the weak in order to stremgthen them when they fall. If you believe, however, that evil is a characteristic of a deed, you are delving into subjectivity, and so it would be easy to say that God's perception is so far detached from yours that evil does not exist in his mind as it does in yours; that it is as "difficult" or "valuable" in his mind, merely another adjective that can apply to different things for different people. You cannot disprove God. You cannot prove that he exists. If it were possible, there would be no cause to debate the issue.

MageGrayWolf
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A man can argue to change the free will of a man. But if you were a god, and you argued a man. You as a god will not let your argument fail to change his feelings. Thus diminishing the man's free will. Thus, it is the same thing as just possessing the man and making him not kill the family.


No it's not the same. Just because someone would know exactly what to say to chance someones mind doesn't mean that person isn't making the decision. If it was just possession then the person would have no choice in following along. If what you argue is true we could further argue whether free will exists at all or if we are just deterministic in nature. If so then the argument of free will becomes moot.

Time to play the bs apologetics game I see...

God kicked them out because they disobeyed Him. God did not alter their free will.


I've already pointed out how it had to do with keeping them from the tree of life and have even pointed out he passage stating as such. If his punishment didn't interfere with their free will then that would mean that's what they wanted him to do is lay such punishments down on them. That does not seem to be the case. So any such punishment would have to impede on free will, otherwise God would have to simply leave them be.

You may say, "But they still willed to stay in the garden." But just because you will something doesn't mean it has to come true. You or I could use our free will to wish to have 1 million dollars, but it will not come true.


The difference with your example and what's happening here is that God is actively making it happen while in your example it may or may not occur on it's own.

This example is simple punishment, not alteration of free will.


So taking someone's life away is not considered taking their free will away? The punishment itself effect free will.

Exodus 9:34 "When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder stopped, He and his officials hardened their hearts." They hardened their own hearts, God just predicted it.


Yes in later passages they are doing it themselves however.
Exodus 9 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.
That's not making a prediction there, that is something God is doing himself.


Once again, simple punishment. Or maybe a hindrance from building the tower. They can still have the free will and ability to make the tower, but it would just be more difficult.


It clearly states what he did was to prevent them from continuing to build the tower. This is the is why I can't stand apologetics, it's completely dishonest.

The commandments are simply laws that people have the option of following. Once again not influencing of free will.


"Do this or else" is influencing free will!

Jesus never altered free will. He influenced the choice of following Him. You may say "But you said influencing is altering of free will." Wrong. Jesus just made the choices clear. Follow Me, or don't follow Me. In the example of the man who is about to murder the family, you as a god would be talking to him, but with the ultimate goal of convincing him, which means he won't have the free will to continue with his plan of killing his family. When Jesus spread His message, people still had the choice to reject Him.


The man would still have the free will to reject the advice from God. It's just not likely he wouldn't be convinced because of how compelling the argument would be. But it would still be up to the man to decide. Now if the argument put forth included God issuing some sort of threat for not listening this would be a different story.

The movie may be immutable, but it is an improv movie, The "actors" make it up as they go and God has already seen the movie before, so he simply knows the outcome, He did not influence it.


That would make God an idiot. God as the director tells his actors to just improv the whole thing, then get's mad at what they do. But once on film as this is the point at which we would be talking about not the filming it's not going to change. When your the one making the final product you only have yourself to blame.

Like I have already mentioned, just because someone wills something, doesn't mean it is going to be the assured outcome.


As in my further example God has the kill switch, it would be his negligence not to act.
AfterBurner0
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AfterBurner0
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Nomad

No it's not the same. Just because someone would know exactly what to say to chance someones mind doesn't mean that person isn't making the decision. If it was just possession then the person would have no choice in following along. If what you argue is true we could further argue whether free will exists at all or if we are just deterministic in nature. If so then the argument of free will becomes moot.


It is the same. Your ultimate goal, as a 100% good god, is to keep the person from murdering. No matter what method you go about keeping the person from murdering, it will still give them no free will.

If his punishment didn't interfere with their free will then that would mean that's what they wanted him to do is lay such punishments down on them.


They freely chose to eat the bad fruit. God punished them. He did not change what their free will was.

So taking someone's life away is not considered taking their free will away? The punishment itself effect free will.


Yes. And just like in Eden, the humans used free will to bring the punishment upon themselves.

Yes in later passages they are doing it themselves however.
Exodus 9 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.
That's not making a prediction there, that is something God is doing himself.


Alright, I must admit that looks like alteration of free will. But it was for the greater good, which was letting Israelis go from captivity.

It clearly states what he did was to prevent them from continuing to build the tower.


But humans are still capable of building such a tall tower. God just made it more difficult.

"Do this or else" is influencing free will!


Of course it is! But it still leaves a choice of will you follow the commands or not.

The man would still have the free will to reject the advice from God. It's just not likely he wouldn't be convinced because of how compelling the argument would be. But it would still be up to the man to decide. Now if the argument put forth included God issuing some sort of threat for not listening this would be a different story.


God has already given us advice that can be rejected, the ten commandments.

That would make God an idiot. God as the director tells his actors to just improv the whole thing, then get's mad at what they do. But once on film as this is the point at which we would be talking about not the filming it's not going to change. When your the one making the final product you only have yourself to blame.


I never said God was the director. I said he is the spectator for the second time. He knows what will happen but did not choose it.
Somewhat49
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Somewhat49
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Nomad

Why are pain and death bad? They aren't good or bad, they're just things unless you perceive them to be. Pain alerts us to the evil things in life, it brings us to our senses such that we don't live our lives with our heads in the clouds. And death is a gift and a release; a person can only live that long before being weighed down by the world and tire of it.

I don't mind the concept of pain, I just would rather avoiud getting hurt and dying is quite a soleum event and always is, not having death would be quite nice. Only problem would you being the only one with no death in which you'l prolly go mad.
Well, the same trick still works today, doesn't it? The devil gave Eve the option to judge God's word herself, and she did. Isn't that exactly what you're doing here?

Yes I am, but my point is that adam and eve weren't perfect as you said earlier and neither am I. So since they aren't perfect, then why should they be the eternal representative of the human race?
In the same way that you might allow a sibling to fail so he understands better than just being told he will fail, what if life is your proving ground in his eyes

So you are saying that what he is doing is seeing how far we are from being good and then count up the time we need to be better.
You or I could use our free will to wish to have 1 million dollars

I don't think that's what free will is, I think it involves actualy doing something physicaly.
Once again, simple punishment. Or maybe a hindrance from building the tower. They can still have the free will and ability to make the tower, but it would just be more difficult.

What aboutthe will to all speak one launguage? I think the bable story definatley interferred with that.
When Jesus spread His message, people still had the choice to reject Him.

And so does that murderer...
It is the same. Your ultimate goal, as a 100% good god, is to keep the person from murdering. No matter what method you go about keeping the person from murdering, it will still give them no free will.

So you're saying that god is, infact, not all good?
Alright, I must admit that looks like alteration of free will. But it was for the greater good, which was letting Israelis go from captivity.

And saving Tomy, Jane, and Sarah from the murderer is for the greater good also (murder analogy, wanted to give names to make it seem a bit more personal).
AfterBurner0
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AfterBurner0
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Nomad

I don't think that's what free will is, I think it involves actualy doing something physicaly.


Free will is the ability to choose what we want to do. Forget the million dollars, that was stupid, I thought of a better example. I want to physically eat my whole house. But that is not going to happen because it is impossible.

What about the will to all speak one launguage? I think the bable story definatley interferred with that.


They can will to speak the same language, but they can't. Just like I can't eat my house, they couldn't all speak the same language, even though we both use our free will to desire them.

And so does that murderer...


No, he doesn't have a choice of rejecting you (you, as being god). Because your ultimate goal is to prevent him from becoming a murderer. It doesn't matter how you do it, you are still completely changing his free will.

So you're saying that god is, infact, not all good?


No. I'm saying that if you were a god, in order to be good you would need to let the (soon to be) murderer go about his free will.

And saving Tomy, Jane, and Sarah from the murderer is for the greater good also (murder analogy, wanted to give names to make it seem a bit more personal).


Perhaps it was just the time for the family to go. You may think "Then God is not all good because he allows people to die." I think of the book of Job in chapter one where God allows Satan to kill the family of Job. I also think of Revelation 22:11 "Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; Let him who is vile continue to be vile; Let him who does right continue to do right; Let him who is holy continue to be holy."
Somewhat49
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Somewhat49
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Nomad

No. I'm saying that if you were a god, in order to be good you would need to let the (soon to be) murderer go about his free will.

nooooo, you said that any 100% good god would prevent the murderer killing his faily, here i quote
Your ultimate goal, as a 100% good god, is to keep the person from murdering
AfterBurner0
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AfterBurner0
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Nomad

Typo. Supposed to be a question mark at the end. Which makes it "Your ultimate goal, as a 100% good god, is to keep the person from murdering?" Which then basically asks, "How can you still be good by altering his free will to keeping him from murdering?" Because in order to be a good god you must give him free will.

Sir__Ila
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Sir__Ila
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Perhaps you don't realize the numerous and plentiful times in the Bible that God is a selfish, petty, malicious, contradicting *******. Not to mention mass murderer.

You have no basis to accuse God of wrongdoing on. God is malicious? By whose standard? Morality is only meaningful if it is based on something absolute. You can scream and stomp and throw a fit and say you don't like God, perhaps, but you cannot logically accuse God of not being good unless you have an absolute standard that does not come from God. The absolute standard in the Bible is God's character; therefore, to say that God is not good is the same as saying that I am not very me-ish.

God can't exist as an all powerful, all knowing and all loving God, if he was all loving and all knowing he must not have the power to destroy evil. If he was all loving and all powerful he must not not know that evil exists and if he was all powerful and all knowing he must not love us.

Actually, God is omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent, and evil exists. There is no contradiction because the evil is the just punishment for our sin, and God has offered a solution to each and every person that will take it. God became a man, Jesus Christ, and experienced the suffering and death that we experience, and far worse. God loves us.
Kasic
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Kasic
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You have no basis to accuse God of wrongdoing on. God is malicious? By whose standard? Morality is only meaningful if it is based on something absolute. You can scream and stomp and throw a fit and say you don't like God, perhaps, but you cannot logically accuse God of not being good unless you have an absolute standard that does not come from God. The absolute standard in the Bible is God's character; therefore, to say that God is not good is the same as saying that I am not very me-ish.


I have plenty of basis, although you seem to not read the part in my previous post about these examples coming from the Bible. I personally have no experience but using the bible there are many time where God exhibits childish characteristics and petty wants, such as the need to be worshipped and punished if you don't.

God is omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent, and evil exists. There is no contradiction because the evil is the just punishment for our sin, and God has offered a solution to each and every person that will take it. God became a man, Jesus Christ, and experienced the suffering and death that we experience, and far worse. God loves us.


Let's pick this apart slowly, shall we?

Claim one: God is Omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent and evil exists.

1) If God is all three, then why are humans flawed? An All powerful, all knowing, and all loving god would not intentionally create defective creations and then further punish them for these defections that HE made.

2) How can you claim God is benevolent when he permits Satan to do whatever? Or even have a limited influence?

Claim two: There is no contradiction because the evil is the just punishment for our sin and God has offered a solution to each and every person that will take it.

1) There is a contradiction, God is supposedly punishing us for doing what we choose to do, despite having given us free will and creating imperfect things in the first place. We're being punished for being Human.

2)And what is this solution that God has offered? Worship him and act like you're a horrible person and feel guilty about having human wants and desires? That sounds like an egotistical maniac to me. Furthermore, again, HE gave us any imperfections and inborn desires/wants that we have.

Claim three: God became a man, Jesus Christ, and experienced the suffering and death that we experience and far worse. God loves us.

1) Jesus Christ was the son of God, not God himself, so if he experienced it, it was second hand.

2) An All Knowing god would not need to do this to understand.

3) Suffering and death that he created. Why the hell would you make a tree of knowledge and then tell Adam and Eve not to eat it, when you could just not make it in the first place? That's malicious.

4) What basis do you have to say God loves us? There is no example of this through any of his actions.

So, in conclusion, God is VERY similar to that of a corrupt dictator who spreads propaganda that makes himself look good, while creating a scapegoat to focus hate on.
MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

Sorry for not getting to your other points. (under some medication right now)

Typo. Supposed to be a question mark at the end. Which makes it "Your ultimate goal, as a 100% good god, is to keep the person from murdering?" Which then basically asks, "How can you still be good by altering his free will to keeping him from murdering?" Because in order to be a good god you must give him free will.


So you regard stopping someone from murdering another as bad? (in this case that someone being God)

I see it quite differently. Just as a parent will impede on a child's free will at times to protect and keep them out of trouble, God would act in the same manner for the same reasons.

Actually, God is omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent, and evil exists. There is no contradiction because the evil is the just punishment for our sin, and God has offered a solution to each and every person that will take it. God became a man, Jesus Christ, and experienced the suffering and death that we experience, and far worse. God loves us.


Do I need to pull out the pictures of the harlequin baby? You would have to talk about punishment for another's "sins" As for Jesus being a sacrifice i find this to be a barbaric and unnecessary way for an all powerful being to go about saying "your forgiven" Not to mention is extremely odd and contradictory for an all good being to require suffering and death in order to forgive.
This makes me find the very foundation of Christianity to be absolutely sick.
Sir__Ila
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Sir__Ila
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Peasant

using the bible there are many time where God exhibits childish characteristics and petty wants, such as the need to be worshipped and punished if you don't.

God does not need anything; but God deserves to be worshiped by everyone for who He is. God does want us to worship him, but you have no grounds for saying that's childish.

An All powerful, all knowing, and all loving god would not intentionally create defective creations and then further punish them for these defections that HE made.

God does not force people to sin by the way they are made; every sin is a choice. The guilt for the sin is on the sinner, not the Creator. The "God made me do it" plea does not work in court and will not work with God.

Jesus Christ was the son of God, not God himself, so if he experienced it, it was second hand.

Jesus Christ is the son of God and is God.

Suffering and death that he created. Why the hell would you make a tree of knowledge and then tell Adam and Eve not to eat it, when you could just not make it in the first place? That's malicious.

That's not malicious. God gave Adam and Eve everything they needed to live in peace with God, creation, and each other forever. Their own choice to rebel made the world the way it is.

What basis do you have to say God loves us? There is no example of this through any of his actions.

The Bible is ripe with examples of God's love and mercy. His death on the cross is the greatest one.

Not to mention is extremely odd and contradictory for an all good being to require suffering and death in order to forgive.

The wages of sin is death. God's desire for justice is not contrary to His all good nature, but an inseparable part of it. Every wrong is paid for by someone. When someone hurts you, you must suffer in order to forgive them. The anguish you go through is proportionate to the seriousness of their crime. It is not easy to forgive the murderer of your loved ones. Every sin against God is an infinite insult against His holy nature; someone has to pay the price for that, and the price is death. God paid that price Himself by experiencing more anguish than is possible for us.

This makes me find the very foundation of Christianity to be absolutely sick.

If you do not like the idea of justice, that would seem like a psychological problem. I love you, Mage, and I beg you to put down your stubbornness and examine the Scriptures. There is life and truth there that you do not want to see it because you blame God for your hurt and bondage. Remember that through any conversation we're bound to have in the future, my goal is not to win an intellectual jousting match with you. I get nothing from this.
Kasic
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Kasic
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Jester

God does want us to worship him, but you have no grounds for saying that's childish.


I do when you're supposedly punished for not doing so.

God does not force people to sin by the way they are made; every sin is a choice.


So I suppose you believe homosexuality is a choice?

That's not malicious. God gave Adam and Eve everything they needed to live in peace with God, creation, and each other forever. Their own choice to rebel made the world the way it is.


Do we really have to go over this again? This is the equivilant of leaving two young children in a room and then placing a gun on the table, pointing it out to them and saying, "Don't touch this" with no further explanation, then leaving, then comes along sadistic brother telling them that daddy said it was okay to play with it.

The Bible is ripe with examples of God's love and mercy. His death on the cross is the greatest one.


Funny. Dying on a cross is a brutal and horrible way to die. He had his own son killed because he loved him? An all powerful God really can't just proclaim that your sins are gone if you repent, he has to have a sacrifice?

So when God kills every person on the earth except for Noah and his family and two of each animal, that's love and mercy?

When the cities of Sodom and Gommorah have hellfire rained onto them, that's love and mercy?

When he punishes Job because Satan says Job only loves God for the things he has given him, that's love and mercy?

When he kills the first born child of every egyptian family for the crimes of the ruling elite, that's love and mercy?

I could go on like this for a while btw.

Every sin against God is an infinite insult against His holy nature; someone has to pay the price for that, and the price is death


And here I thought God was all forgiving and all loving. Silly me.

I beg you to put down your stubbornness and examine the Scriptures


Take your own advice please. The bible is one of the most violent and hate filled books in existence. It has every act of evil withen it and mass slaughters.

my goal is not to win an intellectual jousting match with you.


What exactly is your goal then? To just repeat what you've been taught for presumably your entire life? (You were born a Christian I am guessing) Because if so, we already know the story.
dair5
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dair5
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So I suppose you believe homosexuality is a choice?


I belive it is not a sin and not a choice.

can you explain why you think that it is god's fault that murders and things like that happen.
Kasic
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Kasic
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Jester

can you explain why you think that it is god's fault that murders and things like that happen.


I don't. I just think that you can't have an all loving god if there are people being eternally tortured.

Pretty much, the ONLY way you can have a God that is Omnipresent, Omnipotent, Benevolent, and gives us free will is if God completely seperates himself from worldly affairs and just watches, lets things run their course and then when you die corrects any wrong doings that occured to you or that you commited and you go on to eternal peace. Also for this, it only makes sense for God to have created all the necessary elements for the universe to form and things took their own course after that. Of course, this completely conflicts with all dogma so...

Anyways, got sidetracked. I don't believe it's God's fault for any action that we take if we do have free will.
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