NOTE: This is not an anti religion post, simply a philosophical and age old debate.
Ok, so very very basically, here is an issue with the typical Christian view of God, a view shared by other religions, aside, however.
God is all good God is all powerful (omnipotent) God is all knowing
If God is all good, then why does he make evil things happen? Why does he create murderers and tsunamis?
Some say God creates us with the choice to do good and bad that we may have free will.
So, in this case God creates us without knowing if we'll choose to be good or bad people, or even if we will believe in him/her.
So God doesn't know if we're going to be good or bad, so God is not all knowing.
BUT - Imagine we still want to hold that he his all knowing, i.e he knows everything about everything. This means God creates us knowing that we're going to be good or bad people, this means that he condemns those he creates bad to a life of sin and ultimately hell, so he can't be all Good.
BUT - if we want to still hold that he is all good, then there must be another reason murderers and tsunamis exist, but what? Maybe God created the world, and is not powerful enough to intervene. Then God is no longer all-powerful. Either that or he is powerful enough to intervene, and simply doesn't want to, in which case he is not all good. What do you think about all this?
You're also saying that punishment within Purgatory is what God perceives as punishment. Doesn't make a difference. He still knows what there is to punish. Heaven and hell were brought up because God must know hell to convince people to go to heaven instead of hell. How does he know that's it's evil? As I was saying, if earthquakes are bad to us, what effect does it ensure? he repeats earthquakes every year, for what reason?
Either we accept that if there is Good there is certainly a Bad or we hold that it is just a neutral Thing.
So how bout we hold everything else neutral except for "god is good" and "devil is evil" I think that could balence it quite nicely.
To continue, what if god isn't all good and has no plan and is improvising and we are all just puppets? The only source we have on any of this is humans and a book written by humans. And why are people trusting the imperfect human? And no one has even mentioned what role the Devil might be playing in all of this.
But he can't be improvising because he knows everything, since he knows everything improvising can't even be an option, everything has to be set just so.
Even if he did, people have already made different versions of it to fit their little sect. So like i said earlier, the original Bible has probably been lost in time.
You could even say that every bible was warped to fit the unperfect human's needs except for the original one which dev thinks is lost in all the many translations. Btw when we are refering to the bible, is this old or new testement or both?
If he feels everything then he feels all negative feelings as well which disproves his moral holiness.
But does he ever act on those feelings? Or is it just the fact that you have the feelings that you are immeditly marked as not so good?
A role God either set up or allows to happen. if God is unable to stop any such interference this would go against god's all powerful status.
So then you could consider the devil as part of god's divine plan since he sets the deil up to do everything, and if he knows everything and sets up everything, then why dosen't he just move the two trees before he makes eden and that other.
why do 10 000 people die from earthquakes every year? Why do earthquakes keep happening and kill HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people?
The message is that we need population control, but since we aren't doing any, he has to do it himself.
Look, if God was omniscient from the start, then he does not know what it is like to learn something. it's a contradiction dude.
He knows everything, so he knows what it is like to learn, it's like how ghe know purgatory and hell, he hasn't actualy been there, but he still knows everything about it.
Slow Computer. Sorry, my computers putting out stuff slowly as crap. Anyway, If God doesn't know how to learn something, why and how does he create humans who don't know how to learn anything? Doesn't it mean that he doesn't know something that we as humans know?
The message is that we need population control, but since we aren't doing any, he has to do it himself.
Population control can be done without earthquakes... if that's all earthquakes are useful for -.- Earthquakes induce a sense of hopelessness and loss. That's a pretty stupid way to go across population control.
He knows everything, so he knows what it is like to learn, it's like how ghe know purgatory and hell, he hasn't actualy been there, but he still knows everything about it.
You're also saying that punishment within Purgatory is what God perceives as punishment. Doesn't make a difference. He still knows what there is to punish. Heaven and hell were brought up because God must know hell to convince people to go to heaven instead of hell. How does he know that's it's evil? As I was saying, if earthquakes are bad to us, what effect does it ensure? he repeats earthquakes every year, for what reason?
So how bout we hold everything else neutral except for "god is good" and "devil is evil" I think that could balence it quite nicely.
That's still a perception. Plus, it leaves problems. Why is the Devil evil? Is it because he has X characteristic, say...bloodthirstiness, avarice, greed? Then humans with Characteristic X will also be classified as ''evil''.
You're also saying that punishment within Purgatory is what God perceives as punishment. Doesn't make a difference. He still knows what there is to punish. Heaven and hell were brought up because God must know hell to convince people to go to heaven instead of hell.
Erm yeah....He knows what there is to punish. I never argued aginst that. How does He know it's evil? Because He is omnipotent and omniscient. According to Christians, He created the Universe, He sets the rules. Period.
As I was saying, if earthquakes are bad to us, what effect does it ensure? he repeats earthquakes every year, for what reason?
Again, as mentioned, if you read my earlier comment, what we perceive as ''bad'' might not be so to Him. We set our own moral perceptions about what is Good Or Bad, but we don't know what He thinks is Good or Bad.
Anyway, If God doesn't know how to learn something, why and how does he create humans who don't know how to learn anything? Doesn't it mean that he doesn't know something that we as humans know?
It absolutely doesn't. If He did create Humans who didn't need to learn, they would be omnipotent as He is. It doesn't for one moment prove that He doesn't know something, it just proves that He didn't want us to be omnipotent.
Population control can be done without earthquakes... if that's all earthquakes are useful for -.- Earthquakes induce a sense of hopelessness and loss. That's a pretty stupid way to go across population control.
I would think he was making a sarcastic comment if you get my drift....Anyway, even if it was intended as population control, erm....don't all forms of population control bring a sense of hopelessness and loss? I can't believe I'm even arguing about such details and bizarre comments.
Population control can be done without earthquakes... if that's all earthquakes are useful for -.- Earthquakes induce a sense of hopelessness and loss. That's a pretty stupid way to go across population control.
How would you do it then?
You're contradicting yourself...
I don't get how am I, I'm no longer treating learning as a feeling or whatever you would say it is, and am not treating it like data, you can download it and know everything about it, but not actualy make it (meaning that by learning something new you are learning, so you are creating that experience)
-.- I don't think you're getting my point. Look, if he was omniscient at the start he doesn't know what it's like to learn something. This is something that we as humans know how to do. To learn something, I mean. God doesn't know this. He creates humans with the knowledge to learn things. It's a contradiction.
I don't get how am I, I'm no longer treating learning as a feeling or whatever you would say it is, and am not treating it like data, you can download it and know everything about it, but not actualy make it (meaning that by learning something new you are learning, so you are creating that experience)
Actually you are.
He knows everything, so he knows what it is like to learn, it's like how ghe know purgatory and hell, he hasn't actualy been there, but he still knows everything about it.
If one knows everything, there is nothing left to learn. Therefore God will not know how it is like to learn. Which kind of contradicts His omnipotence.
I would think he was making a sarcastic comment if you get my drift....Anyway, even if it was intended as population control, erm....don't all forms of population control bring a sense of hopelessness and loss? I can't believe I'm even arguing about such details and bizarre comments.
That's still a perception. Plus, it leaves problems. Why is the Devil evil? Is it because he has X characteristic, say...bloodthirstiness, avarice, greed? Then humans with Characteristic X will also be classified as ''evil''.
What if you really go to basics and probably an annoying basic of evil=being the devil good=being god
I can't believe I'm even arguing about such details and bizarre comments.
I think we all have been doing that for at least two days.
I would think he was making a sarcastic comment if you get my drift.
It was a sarcastic comment if he took it as that, if he took it seriously, I would go along.
don't all forms of population control bring a sense of hopelessness and loss?
I agree, any form of population control always leaves the question, Why Me?
Some very good questions and points on here. I'll have to throw in my own perspective. Imagine if everything was good all the time and bad things never happened. I feel it would leave us predictable and not enlightened. How we perceive bad things makes us individuals and gives us knowledge of emotion and power rather than math and science as we grow in life. This leaves victims of murder without the option of this knowledge maybe, or perhaps with us learning that murder exists, the murder does not go in vain but gives us that knowledge. The way I see it murder is death of a body but not a soul. The soul lives on through us as a whole.
Right, I found something nice about the learning thing.
If god knows absolutely everything, then there is no possible way for him to learn. If he cannot learn, then he is not omnipotent. If god can learn, then there must be something unknown to him for there to be something to learn. That would mean that god is not omniscient.
Therefore, an all-knowing and all-powerful being cannot possibly exist.
I can anticipate the evasion that will be made: god has the ability to learn, but doesn't have any opportunity to use it, since he already knows everything to be known. The easy rebuttal to that evasion is: if that is so, then god does not possess the ability to use his ability to learn; therefore, god is not all-powerful. Otherwise, if he has the ability to use his ability to learn, then he must be able to cause a situation in which there is something for him to learn. That would mean that he doesn't know everything, since that would include knowing everything about any situation that he might possibly create.
If one knows everything, there is nothing left to learn. Therefore God will not know how it is like to learn. Which kind of contradicts His omnipotence.
Okay, how is it a contridiction? If he knows everything, then he knows what learning feels like. He doesn't need the experience he already knows. He's never learned, doesn't need to, but knows what it feels like. As humans we need to experience something to know what it feels like. To say god must do the same is to put him down to human capabilities.
If one knows everything, there is nothing left to learn. Therefore God will not know how it is like to learn. Which kind of contradicts His omnipotence.
So can't you say that the thing left to learn is the learning itself? and that by learning learning he learnt it?
Why would you kill someone that you created?
Because... I think that that is a good question, he mapped out everything so he dosen't have to improvise, so why wouldn't he just have those people not born instead of killing them later in life?
Therefore, an all-knowing and all-powerful being cannot possibly exist.
Can't he achieve onmiscent after leaning how to learn?
