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bobbyr5
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bobbyr5
7 posts
Nomad

I just feel the morals and ethics of the middle east aren't right compared to any western country.

  • 879 Replies
master565
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master565
4,104 posts
Nomad

I know one thing now, u guys dont have any valid point to make so u r just dragging this conversation on and on.


That is literally never the right thing to say in a debate.

Because they were the last people living there and they have not given up yet


They still live there, just under a different government. The Palestinians weren't even in charge before that, the British were.

And you tell me, why jews should live in palestine?(or Israel as u may call it)


That's an easy question, anyone should be allowed to live anywhere they want, the question is who should rule it.

Almost all middle eastern countries reject the Jews, only 10,000 live in Iran, 100 in Iraq, 2000 in Serbia, and how many in Lybia? Zero. Almost NO Muslim countries are friendly towards the Jews, so if we give them Israel, why should this change? Israel's population is 20% Arab, and that is not because they are under fear of being killed, it is because they choose not to move there. Jews have no choice to live in any other middle eastern countries because they will most likely be harassed and killed. So if Palestinians are allowed to live in Israel under Jewish rule, and If Jews will almost definitely not be allowed to live there under Palestinians rule, why let the Palestinians rule? Why do they need to run the country? When the Jews rule, anyone is allowed, when the Palestinians rule, the Jews are excluded.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

why let the Palestinians rule? Why do they need to run the country? When the Jews rule, anyone is allowed, when the Palestinians rule, the Jews are excluded.


To be fair to both sides, separate states should be established. The areas Israel controls now are not what they were allocated in 1948.

And to be frank, the Israelis aren't saints exactly, they practice discrimination too.

But my main stand still stands. If the PLO continues using terror tactics, there is no way the Israelis will negotiate. I support a two state solution, BUT BOTH sides must lay down their arms first.

Good thing you're here now Master.
master565
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master565
4,104 posts
Nomad

And to be frank, the Israelis aren't saints exactly, they practice discrimination too.


Every country has discrimination, most aren't bad enough to discourage anyone from living there and aren't condoned by the government.
thepunisher93
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thepunisher93
1,826 posts
Nomad

That's an easy question, anyone should be allowed to live anywhere they want, the question is who should rule it.

Absurd
Yes, it might be a lame excuse, but it's also the main argument you and the PLO have put forth. The PLO states that Israel should not exist precisely because the Palestinian Arabs have lived on the land before them. If you want to argue for the PLO, then argue with the reasoning they have put forth.

And PLO is right, right in the sense that B4 israel there were only palestinians.
Yes, and so? They have been killed in the past, but the American government has not put that barbaric practice into action for a century. Furthermore, the American government provides compensation for using the natural resources of the sovereign lands of the Native Indians.

Funds distributed to a person of Indian descent may represent mineral lease income on property that is held in trust by the United States or compensation for lands taken in connection with governmental projects. Some Indian tribes receive benefits from the federal government in fulfillment of treaty obligations or for the extraction of tribal natural resources â�" a percentage of which may be distributed as per capita among the tribe's membership.

still this does not justify there mistreatment in the past.
'm not going to be a meanie and slam your English, but I cannot even understand this statement

Nevermind
You misinterpret my point AGAIN. Your point was that the Jews immigrated hence the land isn't theirs. Fair enough. But my point and link clearly shows that a large portion of Arabs have migrated to Palestine during the same era. If they are considered Palestinians by the PLO, then the Jews who migrated there before 1947 should be counted as well.

and u misinterpreted my point I said palestinians own the land and as an owner they have the righ to welcome some one or not welcome someone but jews came under the supervision of brits.
I'd rather have human emotions like grief, than be a stone-hearted person like you who thinks might is right.

But u react too much emotionaly, thats not a good thing.
And hence, don't blame the IDF for targeting civilian camps hiding militants. Because every action has a reaction. Since the PLO has not accepted the moderate road, then don't complain about the Israelis oppressing the Palestinians.

If Israel would not have existed this whole killings would never have happened.
That is literally never the right thing to say in a debate.

Like this
My disgust for you knows no bounds since you encourage bloodshed.

is?
They still live there, just under a different government. The Palestinians weren't even in charge before that, the British were.

Against public's will.
That's an easy question, anyone should be allowed to live anywhere they want, the question is who should rule it.

Yeah then I should b akllowed to live at area 51.
And People like to be ruled by someone they choose to.
Almost all middle eastern countries reject the Jews, only 10,000 live in Iran, 100 in Iraq, 2000 in Serbia, and how many in Lybia? Zero. Almost NO Muslim countries are friendly towards the Jews, so if we give them Israel, why should this change? Israel's population is 20% Arab, and that is not because they are under fear of being killed, it is because they choose not to move there. Jews have no choice to live in any other middle eastern countries because they will most likely be harassed and killed. So if Palestinians are allowed to live in Israel under Jewish rule, and If Jews will almost definitely not be allowed to live there under Palestinians rule, why let the Palestinians rule? Why do they need to run the country? When the Jews rule, anyone is allowed, when the Palestinians rule, the Jews are excluded.

Seriously?
That is the most stupid thing I ever heard noone is mad enough to kill someone without a reason unless laws allow him to.
And as for as I know, there no law in any country that says "Kill all the jews"
Why they need to run the country?
because IT IS THEIR COUNTRY.
To be fair to both sides, separate states should be established. The areas Israel controls now are not what they were allocated in 1948.

Very less people in middle east will accept this decision.
But my main stand still stands. If the PLO continues using terror tactics, there is no way the Israelis will negotiate. I support a two state solution, BUT BOTH sides must lay down their arms first.

Mark my words this aint gonna happen either.
master565
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master565
4,104 posts
Nomad

Absurd


How...

Yeah then I should b akllowed to live at area 51


That's a private property, not a country.

Like this


My disgust for you knows no bounds since you encourage bloodshed.


I don't condone (approve) what other people say.

Against public's will.


Doesn't matter, in the past, kings were in charge wether people agreed with them too.

And People like to be ruled by someone they choose to.


Palestinians in Israel get a vote in the government.

That is the most stupid thing I ever heard noone is mad enough to kill someone without a reason unless laws allow him to.


A) Yes, plenty of crazy people will kill for no reason.
B) Why do you think 0 Jews live in Libya?

Why they need to run the country?
because IT IS THEIR COUNTRY.


They don't need to, they want to. And once again, you can't make the statement "it's their country" unless it's an accepted fact, and so far it's not even slightly accepted.
zakyman
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zakyman
1,627 posts
Peasant

Wow! It seems much has happened since I left for school...

May be, but they no longer own the whole of the continent which they once did.


No, they don't, but like nicho said, they have autonomus commumities that are basically independent states.

That's an easy question, anyone should be allowed to live anywhere they want, the question is who should rule it.

Absurd


I am interpreting this as you saying that people shouldn't be allowed to live anywhere they want. If there eventually became a country of Palestine, alongside Israel, would you object to Jews living in that country?

And PLO is right, right in the sense that B4 israel there were only palestinians.


And again, before the Pals, the Arabs, before the Arabs, the Christians, before the Christians, the Romans, before the Romans, the Babylonians, before the Babylonians, the Jews, before them, Canaanites, who no longer have any traced desendents. Also, if your argument is that Canaanites are the first Pals, that is incorrect, since "Palestine" was only a name of the region given by the Romans. Again, the Arabs don't have a letter "P" so how would they be called Palestinians?

But u react too much emotionaly, thats not a good thing.


And you react like a heartless jerk, that's not a good thing.


Mark my words this aint gonna happen either.


Ok, since you implicatly support the Palestinian side, that means that again you are advocating for the destruction of Israel, along with its people. This is why me and nicho are disgusted by you, because you seem to have no respect for the lives of Israeli citizens!

Seriously?
That is the most stupid thing I ever heard noone is mad enough to kill someone without a reason unless laws allow him to.
And as for as I know, there no law in any country that says "Kill all the jews"
Why they need to run the country?
because IT IS THEIR COUNTRY.


Taliban, al-Qaeda, other Islamic terrorist organizations...

Oh, time for a fun fact, guess how many Afghan Jews in Afghanistan there are?

1


Yeah then I should b akllowed to live at area 51.
And People like to be ruled by someone they choose to.


Area 51 is government property, and a military base. I just can't go to Camp David and demand to live there. I would have to be close to the President in some way. That example of yours holds no water. And also, the Palestinians have the right to vote in Israel. If a Palistinian State was astablished, would you object to having Jews vote?
Hypermnestra
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Hypermnestra
26,390 posts
Nomad

And again, before the Pals, the Arabs, before the Arabs, the Christians, before the Christians, the Romans, before the Romans, the Babylonians, before the Babylonians, the Jews, before them, Canaanites, who no longer have any traced desendents. Also, if your argument is that Canaanites are the first Pals, that is incorrect, since "Palestine" was only a name of the region given by the Romans. Again, the Arabs don't have a letter "P" so how would they be called Palestinians?

I'll just step in here for a second...
I think that neither Israel or Palestine is completely in the right here. They've both made some mistakes and done some bad things, but in the end Israel as a nation should not be annihilated. They are simply defending their home.
NOW, that having been said, what claim do the Jews have to the land of Israel? Not right now per se...before the nation of Israel was created, the area was inhabited by Palestinian Muslims. What right did the United Nations have to cut out a piece of their land and give it to the Jews?
EmperorPalpatine
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EmperorPalpatine
9,439 posts
Jester

And again, before the Pals, the Arabs, before the Arabs, the Christians, before the Christians, the Romans, before the Romans, the Babylonians, before the Babylonians, the Jews, before them, Canaanites, who no longer have any traced desendents.

You missed Egypt between Jews and Canaanites. Could Egypt claim it then?
zakyman
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zakyman
1,627 posts
Peasant

NOW, that having been said, what claim do the Jews have to the land of Israel? Not right now per se...before the nation of Israel was created, the area was inhabited by Palestinian Muslims. What right did the United Nations have to cut out a piece of their land and give it to the Jews?


Well, the original land that was supposed to be Israel were speckled communities and towns that had large Jewish majorities. They basically already owned the land, so it would just become their own country. However, the Arabs launched a war, and the way Israel came to be how it is today is taking land in defensive wars. Ironic, isn't it? The ones who initiate the conflict to gain a speck of land end up losing a bunch of land!

You missed Egypt between Jews and Canaanites. Could Egypt claim it then?


Well, why would they want to claim a strip of land which is primarily desert and uninhabitable without Israeli technology when they already have a country? Plus with the state that they are in with their internal conflicts, they couldn't afford to create more problems for themselves.
EmperorPalpatine
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EmperorPalpatine
9,439 posts
Jester

It's not a question of if they really want the land or not right now, just that by the same reason it was given to the Jews. Would Egypt have a more valid claim to the land, since it was part of their ancient empire before the ancient Jews claimed it? If they really wanted to (perhaps after Egypt is stabilized, an extremely large deposit of oil is found in under Israel), could Egypt drive out the current inhabitants (I don't mean by war necessarily, but by a UN vote)? It seems the only reason it belongs to the Jews is because "God said so", which we've ruled out as a valid reason to take land (Holy Crusades).

zakyman
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zakyman
1,627 posts
Peasant

It seems the only reason it belongs to the Jews is because "God said so", which we've ruled out as a valid reason to take land (Holy Crusades).


Well, if you are going religiously, than yes, that is exactly why the land belongs to the Jews. However, your argument about the UN voting to give the land to Egypt is a moot point because any such move would likely have to go through the UN Security Council, and the US would shoot it down, and most likely not a single country on the council at the time would vote to pass such a measure.
Hypermnestra
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Hypermnestra
26,390 posts
Nomad

Well, the original land that was supposed to be Israel were speckled communities and towns that had large Jewish majorities. They basically already owned the land, so it would just become their own country.

So if a certain religion or race is a majority in the area, they should get their own country? For example, do you think that the U.N. should take land away from Iran, Turkey, and Iraq and create the nation of Kurdistan?

However, the Arabs launched a war, and the way Israel came to be how it is today is taking land in defensive wars. Ironic, isn't it? The ones who initiate the conflict to gain a speck of land end up losing a bunch of land!

I know that much and I'm not disputing Israel's claim to the land that it has gained in wars, just to its existence. I don't have anything against a Jewish nation, I just don't see why it should have been created when that means taking away land from another country.
Hypermnestra
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Hypermnestra
26,390 posts
Nomad

I know that much and I'm not disputing Israel's claim to the land that it has gained in wars, just to its existence.

Sorry, I should clarify...
It's too late to annex the nation of Israel, I think it should continue to exist. I just don't agree with the decision to have created it in the first place, if that makes sense.
zakyman
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zakyman
1,627 posts
Peasant

So if a certain religion or race is a majority in the area, they should get their own country? For example, do you think that the U.N. should take land away from Iran, Turkey, and Iraq and create the nation of Kurdistan?


Do I think that a nation for Kurds should be established? Yes. However, it should be done through negotiations. When the Mandate of Palestine was ended by the Brits, they broke it up into an Arab nation, and a Jewish nation (the latter was much smaller than the former). The Jewish nation accepted this immediately, but the Arabs attacked. Technically, it was the Brits who made the Jewish State, the UN just rubber stamped it.

They are simply defending their home.


I sincerely hope that you only mean Israel is defending their home on this one. Last time I checked, firing rockets into civilian homes and schools and slashing the throats of families is not "defending your home."
EmperorPalpatine
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EmperorPalpatine
9,439 posts
Jester

@zakyman [I would quote your reply, but I'm on my phone so it would be nearly impossible to do so]

Ok forget getting UN permission. They take over the land by force. They cite ancestry as the reason they have rights to it. Regardless of resulting consequences of such actions (sanctions etc.), is their claim of ancestral ownership valid? How would they have less rights to it than Jews?

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