Forums → WEPR → You support Israel? I DO

This is from the first link. No offense, however I am discounting this as a source due to this paragraph. A sensitive issue must have correct figures as to the population of Palestine prior to 1947.
As for the second one, I can't really make heads or tails of it. Is the survey including Jews inside Palestine? Or only non-Jews or Arabs?

My point was that there are practically no really reliable sources as to the demographics of 1940s Palestine and that almost all of the sources conflict with each other.

My point was that there are practically no really reliable sources as to the demographics of 1940s Palestine and that almost all of the sources conflict with each other.

Well, I'm pretty sure that it would have been easy to separate out the Jewish communities from the Arab and non-Jewish ones.

Well, I'm pretty sure that it would have been easy to separate out the Jewish communities from the Arab and non-Jewish ones.

Like separating Jerusalem and Jericho, you mean? But I still don't see how that would counter what I said, which is that the sources of information for Palestinian demographics are unreliable except as rough estimates at best.

world does not go this way

Actually it does for the most part. There haven't been many countries that just ban all but one religion like there used to be in Europe in a very long time.

majotiy of them does not live in Israel and is against Israel.

So if they want a say in the government they should live there.

mind giving a source?

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That is an accepted fact, other wise there would not have had a two state solution.

I don't know much about the solution, but it's probably more of an attempt at peace, not an agreement with the other side being right.

Neither does his argument, because apparently its not possible for every one to live where ever one likes. That possible few centuries ago though.

You could not have gotten this more backwards. A few centuries ago the only people who could live in Europe were Christians for the most part (sometimes it wasn't just Christians, but all other religions were discriminated)

Yep, I do. But I still don't see how a religious imperative qualifies one for a religious state. Especially considering the state of war and hostility that the nation[of Israel] was going to be in from the start. A Jewish nation surrounded on all sides by Muslim nations, it was bound to turn violent.

No. My point is that it is inexorable that religion is an integral part of Israeli Nationalism. It wasn't about justifying a religious state. Israel isn't exactly a non-secular, or secular state, it is in between. Furthermore, it is not a question of religion entirely, nationalism does come into the fore, and that is an equally volatile concept.


As for the question of Palestinian nationality, the PLO charter has already defined it.

My point was that there are practically no really reliable sources as to the demographics of 1940s Palestine and that almost all of the sources conflict with each other.

My sources mainly gave statistics in the inter world-war periods, which are rather reliable.

So? The British had no right to carve such a state out of India. Just like they had no right to carve Israel out right? Either you support both statements, or you drop them. Simple as that.

There is alot of difference b/w both cases.
a) Muslims lived in subcontinent for 1300 years.
b) Muslims were not systematically colonized(not in recent past at least) unlike jews.
c) Population concentration difference was very sharp like 90% muslim areas and 90% hindu areas.

The British formed the government. It is up to the government to decide so. If that was the case, the Hindu majority would have the right to decide whether the Muslims could secede.

They did it because hey could get out without doing it or else muslim genocide (on much larger scale than at time of partition) would have happened.

not every conflict be resolved by force and neither can every conflict b resolved by talking.

Well I guess then it will have to b annihilated ryte?

So, now you actually came clean. Killing Israelis and wiping out innocents is just another ''fact'' of life for you. A fact is an axiom, and indisputable statement, such as, the Earth is round. If killing is a justified fact for you, then you are not a human at all. My disgust for you knows no bounds since you encourage bloodshed.

Well what can I say to a guy like u?
Other then "every action have a reaction."

There were pretty much quotes from you stating that Israel needs to be destroyed, and that the only method is through fighting, which you said is perfectly fine.

Let me put it this way
Palestine & Israel are not agreeing on some solution.
Palestine is there, as does Israel.
Now
If Palestine is destroyed:
Israel will still be there and whole of the middle east will still have problem with it.
So No peace in Middle east.
Else if Israel is destroyed :
No one in middle east will have a grudge against west every body will b happy except jews.

A fact is something that cannot be proven right. Israel can survive and peace can ensue if the Palestinians and Israelis come to a settlement. As far as I can tell, Egypt and Jordan have long accepted Israel's existence, leading them to stop any fighting with Israel.

I think then the proper word is ground reality.
And as I stated before Palestinians will be the last people to lay down arms because its there home land at line and this does not seem possible in near future.

And might I question which nation will actually be willing to help a country that is backed by the USA and NATO?

Help can b done in many ways just like Iran supporting hezbollah.

Let me also remind you that the Russians lost not only because of the ISI, which played a lesser role due to it being a fledgling organization, as compared to the CIA which provided the main bulk of weapons Eg. Stinger Missiles, and the training.

Weapons dont fire themselves.and you cant expect a shot fired in Islamabad hitting someone in kabul.
Let me remind you that at first, USA did not cared about that war.
(This post took me Four tries,twice I canceled page accidently, once power supply went down.

There is alot of difference b/w both cases.
a) Muslims lived in subcontinent for 1300 years.
b) Muslims were not systematically colonized(not in recent past at least) unlike jews.
c) Population concentration difference was very sharp like 90% muslim areas and 90% hindu areas.

Are you kidding me!? This is the most hypocritical statement you have made on this thread! You say that "Muslims lived in subcontinent for 1300 years" but the Jews also lived in Israel for over 2000 years! For "B," you say the Muslims weren't colonizing, however neither were the Jews! They were simply immigrating to the region of Palestine under the British Mandate of Palestine! And for "C," you have said that even if there were extremely Jewish areas, they shouldn't have been given a state, however that is exactly WHY the Muslims were given yet another country!

No one in middle east will have a grudge against west every body will b happy except jews.

And about 2 billion Christians who also believe that Israel belongs to the Jews. So would you like almost all religions to turn against the Muslims even as they are already being bashed globally?

Help can b done in many ways just like Iran supporting hezbollah.

But any help Iran could give would be insignificant against the combined armies of NATO, US, and Israel.

I think then the proper word is ground reality.
And as I stated before Palestinians will be the last people to lay down arms because its there home land at line and this does not seem possible in near future.

Actually, Israel will be the last, as they will never put down their arms, as they are always on guard for any Palestinian attack by Hamas! You want a country? Get to the **** negotiating table without pre-conditions, and quit firing rockets into civilian areas! Israel doesn't have to do squat for you, so if you want a country, you play by the **** rules! I don't care that it "isn't fair, because Israel is so much bigger than us." I care that you guys have turned down multiple offers of peace, and then have the audacity to say that Israel is the oppressor. No. You guys are oppressing yourselves. In fact, I pray every night that Israel will give you your country, so that when a single rocket is fired, they can just march in there and take it out, and you guys couldn't say **** about it!

Actually it does for the most part. There haven't been many countries that just ban all but one religion like there used to be in Europe in a very long time.

So you want to spin th wheel of time backwards?

So if they want a say in the government they should live there.

What are you trying to say?

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What he libya did was wrong plain and simple.
But most of the muslim countries are tolerable about non muslim minorities.

I don't know much about the solution, but it's probably more of an attempt at peace, not an agreement with the other side being right.

No peace attempt gives advantage to the unfair side because if it will other side will forfeit the agreement.

You could not have gotten this more backwards. A few centuries ago the only people who could live in Europe were Christians for the most part (sometimes it wasn't just Christians, but all other religions were discriminated)

I meant that in those days visa and stuff was not needed.
And you negated your own point.

No peace attempt gives advantage to the unfair side because if it will other side will forfeit the agreement.

Than what, pray tell, do you call the Treaty of Versailles, which was only completely fulfilled last year?

a) Muslims lived in subcontinent for 1300 years.
b) Muslims were not systematically colonized(not in recent past at least) unlike jews.
c) Population concentration difference was very sharp like 90% muslim areas and 90% hindu areas.

Well, there were also areas in the Palestine that were largely non-Muslim as shown in the 1922 census, which was relatively untouched by immigration.

And Jews have lived in Palestine for thousands of years. I thought you mentioned that such time arguments are absurd? So why bring them up again?

Furthermore no, the margin between Muslim and Hindu populations was very slim. All districts (other than Amritsar, which was 46.5% Muslim) did have Muslim majorities; albeit, in Gurdaspur, the Muslim majority, at 51.1%, was slender. Furthermore, in the Sindh there was a population of Hindus more than 1.4 million strong. Yet the British went through.

They did it because hey could get out without doing it or else muslim genocide (on much larger scale than at time of partition) would have happened.

I can find no evidence to suggest them doing that to avoid a genocide, rather than a civil war. There is no indication that the Hindus wanted to massacre the Muslim populations in a genocide.

Else if Israel is destroyed :
No one in middle east will have a grudge against west every body will b happy except jews.

Nope. NATO and the Western Nations, and pretty much everyone else in the world will be enraged. I find it hard to actually believe you can come up with a quack argument that if all Israelis are killed the ME will be happy and no one will be sad.

And as I stated before Palestinians will be the last people to lay down arms because its there home land at line and this does not seem possible in near future.

I'm going to correct you on this, only the bigots and extremists want war and bloodshed. Again here. More here.

Help can b done in many ways just like Iran supporting hezbollah.

They already have. So far, Hezbollah hasn't been succeeding.

Weapons dont fire themselves.and you cant expect a shot fired in Islamabad hitting someone in kabul.
Let me remind you that at first, USA did not cared about that war.

The Mujahideen fired them. Not the Pakistanis. Oh they did care. They cared alright, because it was killing off the Soviets. In fact, the USA plunged straight into the war, arming the Muslim forces as early as 1978.

But most of the muslim countries are tolerable about non muslim minorities.

And yet most of them oppose Israel's right to exist?

But most of the muslim countries are tolerable about non muslim minorities.

Lebanon: 100 Jews
Iraq: 100 Jews
Iran: 10,000 Jews (this still isn't much)
Serbia: 2,200 Jews
Pakistan: 200 Jews

No peace attempt gives advantage to the unfair side because if it will other side will forfeit the agreement.

Sometimes giving the other side a better deal is the only way to get what you want.

And you negated your own point.

How?

Serbia: 2,200 Jews

Serbia's population is 84% Orthodox Christian. Did you mean Albania?

Are you kidding me!? This is the most hypocritical statement you have made on this thread! You say that "Muslims lived in subcontinent for 1300 years" but the Jews also lived in Israel for over 2000 years! For "B," you say the Muslims weren't colonizing, however neither were the Jews! They were simply immigrating to the region of Palestine under the British Mandate of Palestine! And for "C," you have said that even if there were extremely Jewish areas, they shouldn't have been given a state, however that is exactly WHY the Muslims were given yet another country!

First of all muslims lived here for 1300 years unlike jews who lived before 2000 years.
Dude my english may be bad but thats exactly what I was talking about brits set a quota of 25000 jews immigrating in palestine yearly.
Call it Immigration or Colonization but the fact is, that act increased jewish percentage from 10% to over 30% in less then half a century.
I really don't know what else to call it then colonization.

And about 2 billion Christians who also believe that Israel belongs to the Jews. So would you like almost all religions to turn against the Muslims even as they are already being bashed globally?

Not every christian beleives on existence of Israel.
Hell even the jews are not in the favor of it.

But any help Iran could give would be insignificant against the combined armies of NATO, US, and Israel.

That was an example May be I should give another one:-
Just like covert help from CIA against USSR took down USSR.
Same can be achieved here.

Actually, Israel will be the last, as they will never put down their arms, as they are always on guard for any Palestinian attack by Hamas! You want a country? Get to the **** negotiating table without pre-conditions, and quit firing rockets into civilian areas! Israel doesn't have to do squat for you, so if you want a country, you play by the **** rules! I don't care that it "isn't fair, because Israel is so much bigger than us." I care that you guys have turned down multiple offers of peace, and then have the audacity to say that Israel is the oppressor. No. You guys are oppressing yourselves. In fact, I pray every night that Israel will give you your country, so that when a single rocket is fired, they can just march in there and take it out, and you guys couldn't say **** about it!

Dude Your swearing aint gonna prove that you are right or something.
On the other hand, if your fingers are itching to write swear words then we can talk some where else where there is no censor or stuff.

Hell even the jews are not in the favor of it.

There are extremely few Jews who are not in favor of it, not more then a few hundred, if even that high. And these Jews don't want the Jews to have it for religious reasons (something with not being supposed to be there until moshiach come), not because they think that it was gotten the wrong way.

First of all muslims lived here for 1300 years unlike jews who lived before 2000 years.

There has always been a Jewish population in the Palestine. Under the Romans, under the Byzantines, under the Ottomans. Which kind of refutes your point about the Jews suddenly just popping up only recently.

Call it Immigration or Colonization but the fact is, that act increased jewish percentage from 10% to over 30% in less then half a century.

As I have pointed out with links that were ignored by you so many times, there was also massive Arab immigration during the same period into Palestine.

I really don't know what else to call it then colonization.

So Palestinian immigration to the USA is colonization too? Gosh.

Not every christian beleives on existence of Israel.
Hell even the jews are not in the favor of it.

And the majority don't?

Just like covert help from CIA against USSR took down USSR.

The USSR fell due to it's own bad economic policies. Nothing to do with the CIA.