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Somewhat49
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Somewhat49
1,606 posts
Nomad

I have a question to all believers, what's your reason for sticking to your religion? (meaning why do you do it faithfuly, if you just do it cause your parents do it then I don't think you really believe)

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dair5
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dair5
3,371 posts
Shepherd

I don't recall ever literally wishing someone well or good luck. That would be like saying "goodbye", I am not actually playing like I have an effect on the actual parting of the person.


So what exactly do you tell your sick relatives? Do you tell them you hope they get better?
314d1
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314d1
3,817 posts
Nomad

That was in the past. Does the Church still condone killing now?


I thought the bible was supposed to be a constant? Did the gods just change their perfect minds?

Which means that if Hitler thought Jews were sub-humans, and it was morally right to him, then the whole thing was alright. Yeah right. Think a little before posting.


It was to him, wasn't it? You are comparing him to your own moral standards, where genocide is wrong. Hitler's morality told him it was right. So why is Hitler a bad guy? Because your morality says he was. Most peoples morality says he was.

That's not even relevant. Yes it is a fact, BUT I am going to reiterate my point. Do all Christians practise burning? No. Isolated incidents, which cannot be slapped onto all Christians.


Sine we are on Hitler already, lets just roll with it. Did all Nazis burn Jewish people? No. There where plenty who even helped them. So what is your point?

A spartan solider goes to war. A nun/monk preaches. Both gave their lives up, but for DIFFERENT causes.

A terrorist gives his life up as well. Are you going to compare a Spartan to him?


And? Slightly different causes, ever slightly. And yes, terrorist also give up their lives for warfare. What is your point? Id rather compare them to the nuns and monks anyway.

Do they do that today? No. As stated earlier, if you are going to use a different context to justify the situation today, then you are misled.


Some countries still do stone, though holy war is not active at the moment for your particular religion. How is this not relevant today?

So a shooting guide now has morals in it? Wow. The Bible teaches non-violence as well if you didn't know.


It also teaches plenty of violence, and if you are taking only the "good parts", then it is to strict. At least the Geneva convention says you can shoot people shooting at you, but don't harm civilians if it can be helped. Your religion either says "Kill everyone" or "kill no one", and you can't have it both ways.

My point was to break down your argument, and show how you only pull out certain charactersistics and compare both on the basis of just a few characteristics.


The point seems blunt. I was comparing the jobs of the two items. It would be like saying that modern machines are better than humans at making cars, but machines are made of metal. It is irrelevant that humans are not machines, it is only comparing their purpose.

Any mention in the Bible of stoning EVERYONE? Furthermore, I don't see how the last part of the Earth dying in a fireball as relevant. It just prophesies how the world will end, which it will anyway.


As a hyperbole, yes.

Worshiping another god:

If there be found among you ... that ... hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them ... Then shalt thou ... tone them with stones, till they die. Deuteronomy 17:2-5

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers ... thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 13:5-10

Don't obey your elders:

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 21:18-21

Break sabbath:

They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.... And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. Numbers 15:32-56

Insult a god or a king(leader):

Thou didst blaspheme God and the king. And then carry him out, and stone him, that he may die. 1 Kings 21:10

Etc. Etc. Etc. So don't feel alone, everybody must get stoned.

Alcohol in excess causes various medical problems and societal ills. So yes, it definitely is better.......right???


Yes, compared to what excessive religion has caused.

And do you have statistics that only a few Christians go to hospitals? Nearly 85% of Americans are religious. They have over 5700 hospitals, don't tell me that religious people don't go to hospitals.


Many don't, not all of course. Most people realize science is better.

When he prays, he shows care, and the ill know it. I don't even see how the laser pointer point comes in.


Moving a laser pointer in a circle has the same effect as prayer. Nothing. So why don't you just say you care?

And the point that the Church supported slavery? Yes, some of them did, as did most of society. But who started the anti-slavery movement proper? A group of religious folk.


It was ignored for 150 years, and there where more Nazis that went against Hitler. It was only once the movement got off again that these things where found again, you can hardly say they started it.

A "Large portion"? The portion is probably less then the amount of NWB we have today, you can hardly say there was a lot of them. And of course the African Americans where happy to be free and had their church tell them that it was good to be free. The same way that you read the bible and tell yourself it wants you to be nonviolent, you just take your own morals and project them into the book.
314d1
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314d1
3,817 posts
Nomad

As mentioned earlier, that was the context in the past.


Why do you act as if the past doesn't count?

Well, that's in your case. When I prayed, I just prayed for the wellbeing of the people I care for, and not cast spells.

Well, if you're so confident of Atheism, as mentioned earlier, are you able to argue that God doesn't exist, other than the flaws in the Bible?



The flaws in the logic of it. Wince comith evil? Why would natural disasters happen? Why would there be a hell with an all loving creator? There are plenty of logical reasons, but since you have no proof to begin with you can be dismissed without proof, that is how science works.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

I thought the bible was supposed to be a constant? Did the gods just change their perfect minds?


Nope. People can choose how they wish to interpret the Bible.

It was to him, wasn't it? You are comparing him to your own moral standards, where genocide is wrong. Hitler's morality told him it was right. So why is Hitler a bad guy? Because your morality says he was. Most peoples morality says he was.

And unfortunately the majority constitutes what a society believes in. As far as I know, religion does teach values that people esteem, as mentioned earlier. Just because you can learn it without religion doesn't mean religion is outdated. It is just another means to the same end.

Sine we are on Hitler already, lets just roll with it. Did all Nazis burn Jewish people? No. There where plenty who even helped them. So what is your point?

You now mix up aggressor and victim. Yes, they helped him in his earlier movement, after which when he turned on them, how many were left in the service? My point is what I stated earlier, which is obviously not sinking in. Let me repeat.

The burning of witches today are not widespread across all continents, nor do all Christians, or even a vast majority of Christians practice it. Hence your generalization does not stand.

And? Slightly different causes, ever slightly. And yes, terrorist also give up their lives for warfare. What is your point? Id rather compare them to the nuns and monks anyway.

My point is that your analogy is false. The cause of a nun or monk is to make people find salvation in Christ, which was definitely not what a Spartan soldier did.

Some countries still do stone, though holy war is not active at the moment for your particular religion. How is this not relevant today?


Stoning is a punishment in seven nations out of nearly two hundred today. Religious war is used by extremists to support their choices, mainly used by various terrorists groups today. Again, the point about not generalizing based on minorities comes in.

Your religion either says "Kill everyone" or "kill no one", and you can't have it both ways.


The Bible is inherently contradictory, because it has been edited and redited over thousands of years by hundreds of years. One of the ten Commandments clearly states ''Thou shalt not kill'', and is one of the main tenets of Christianity.

The point seems blunt. I was comparing the jobs of the two items. It would be like saying that modern machines are better than humans at making cars, but machines are made of metal. It is irrelevant that humans are not machines, it is only comparing their purpose.


Well then the job of Christianity is to help people find solace and salvation if they choose in Christ. Since that is essentially the same end, if crudely put, by beer, I see in no way how one justifies that beer is better.

As a hyperbole, yes.


Well, exaggerations are always taken out of contexts. I am not refuting that the Bible condones stoning for some in one of its inherent contradictions, I am refuting your point that the Bible states everyone has to be stoned.

Many don't, not all of course. Most people realize science is better.


And yet, most people are still Christians or religious. Religion and science are not mutually exclusive.

Moving a laser pointer in a circle has the same effect as prayer. Nothing. So why don't you just say you care?


Nope. When you pray, a person knows that you care. You can tell him you care, but different people do it differently. I don't see how a simple prayer is in anyway sick. Moving a pointer doesn't show care.

It was only once the movement got off again that these things where found again, you can hardly say they started it.


They didn't grow the movement entirely by themselves, but they were the first to light the spark to such a movement, and that is equally important.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

Why do you act as if the past doesn't count?

I don't. It counts. But when one argues, one should not bring in evidence in the past that has largely different contexts.

The flaws in the logic of it. Wince comith evil? Why would natural disasters happen? Why would there be a hell with an all loving creator?


And how do you know what He plans? No one can fathom His mind. As Christians say, there is a hell for sinners.

There are plenty of logical reasons, but since you have no proof to begin with you can be dismissed without proof, that is how science works.


And yet, these reasons are applied only to the Bible. Science doesn't operate on that basis, it operates on whether you can falsify a statement. There is no proof that He doesn't exist, outside of shooting the Bible, but there isn't proof He exists. A non-falsifiable statement is neither right nor wrong.

Now, dark matter is taken to exist, given numerous indirect observations and calculations. As important as dark matter is believed to be in the cosmos, direct evidence of its existence and a concrete understanding of its nature have remained elusive. No one has actually seen and observed it.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

And anyway, whatever the case, I respect your belief. That being said, I would appreciate if you respect what others want to believe.

And no, I do not have a faith.

314d1
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314d1
3,817 posts
Nomad

Nope. People can choose how they wish to interpret the Bible.


So you can pick in choose a book that is supposed to be infallible? That doesn't make any since.

And unfortunately the majority constitutes what a society believes in. As far as I know, religion does teach values that people esteem, as mentioned earlier. Just because you can learn it without religion doesn't mean religion is outdated. It is just another means to the same end.


If people already like the values before they "get them" from religion, then they are not getting them from religion. They are getting them from themselves. So the book is really worthless.

So does having a lot of society believe something make it morally acceptable? In that case you still have Nazi Germany in the moral green, since most people agreed with them.

Though of course modern people realize genocide is wrong, that doesn't stop it from being in the Bible...

You now mix up aggressor and victim. Yes, they helped him in his earlier movement, after which when he turned on them, how many were left in the service? My point is what I stated earlier, which is obviously not sinking in. Let me repeat.


That paragraph made no since. People like Schindler where Nazis, but they helped people. So by this logic, ?

The burning of witches today are not widespread across all continents, nor do all Christians, or even a vast majority of Christians practice it. Hence your generalization does not stand.


So you are saying it is Ok, since it is not widespread?

Now lets go back to the Nazis again. Lets say that there was a large group of modern Nazis who no longer hate Jewish people and interpret Hitler's writing totally differently. They ignore all the bad parts and just focus on the parts they like, like Hitler's stance against smoking. But there are still a minority of them who go around attacking Jewish people. Does that make them good? Does that make that small attacking "Ok" and Nazism a benefit to society? I don't think so, but by your logic it does.

My point is that your analogy is false. The cause of a nun or monk is to make people find salvation in Christ, which was definitely not what a Spartan soldier did.


The nun/monk and the Spartan soldier both gave up their lives to fight for something society at the time wanted. Does the fact that they are doing different jobs mean anything?

Lets say there are two cars in a parking lot. One is blue and one is red. You are saying we can't compare the cars because they have different colors, which makes not since.

Stoning is a punishment in seven nations out of nearly two hundred today. Religious war is used by extremists to support their choices, mainly used by various terrorists groups today. Again, the point about not generalizing based on minorities comes in.


Even if it is a minority, it still wouldn't be without religion. So why not just wipe out religion and get rid of this problem? The majority just use their own moral code anyway, so they would be unaffected, it would only be the extremist who feel the effect. According to you.

The Bible is inherently contradictory, because it has been edited and redited over thousands of years by hundreds of years. One of the ten Commandments clearly states ''Thou shalt not kill'', and is one of the main tenets of Christianity.


And killing happens a lot. So how do you decide which is right? If you are using your own moral, then you are just using your own moral to start with. If you actually do what it says, then you are an extremist.

Well then the job of Christianity is to help people find solace and salvation if they choose in Christ. Since that is essentially the same end, if crudely put, by beer, I see in no way how one justifies that beer is better.



The side effects are better, beer has less war, less hatred, and less general death associated with it.

Well, exaggerations are always taken out of contexts. I am not refuting that the Bible condones stoning for some in one of its inherent contradictions, I am refuting your point that the Bible states everyone has to be stoned.


Fine. It says to stone everyone who isn't an obedient, strict observer of your religion. Is that better?

And yet, most people are still Christians or religious. Religion and science are not mutually exclusive.


Because science actually gets the job done, while religion doesn't. Science has knocked down every claim made by religion, people just ignore it and walk away.

Nope. When you pray, a person knows that you care. You can tell him you care, but different people do it differently. I don't see how a simple prayer is in anyway sick. Moving a pointer doesn't show care.


Why doesn't moving a pointer show care? It has the exact same effects as the prayer, nothing, and if you pretend it helps it allows them to know you care.

They didn't grow the movement entirely by themselves, but they were the first to light the spark to such a movement, and that is equally important.


It was completely and utterly ignored for one hundred and fifty years. This would be like saying I sparked an age of enlightenment by saying "we should study more" and being found a hundred and fifty years later, when a movement involving studying was already going on.

Now how should I tell you more clearly that this was an isolated indecent of twelve guys? Who where ignored for a century and a half? They did nothing for the movement, they where just used to supplement it when it was already going. What happened to not generalizing about the minority?
nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

So you can pick in choose a book that is supposed to be infallible? That doesn't make any since.


How a person reads any book depends on how he interprets it. You don't need to take the text literally.

If people already like the values before they "get them" from religion, then they are not getting them from religion. They are getting them from themselves. So the book is really worthless.


That depends. A parent can teach a child to be so and so from the Bible. It doesn't mean the child has those values already.

So does having a lot of society believe something make it morally acceptable? In that case you still have Nazi Germany in the moral green, since most people agreed with them.


The Nazi never won more than 50% of the vote, and many voted for them for pragmatic reasons. And yes, that is sadly the case, what most people accept is the ''norm''.

That paragraph made no since. People like Schindler where Nazis, but they helped people. So by this logic, ?

I am not saying it is ok or not ok. I am stating that you shouldn't slap generalizations onto people because a small minority practises it.

Furthermore, your example that the Nazi didn't burn all Jews and some escaped is not even on the same vein as my example that not all people burn witches.

Now lets go back to the Nazis again. Lets say that there was a large group of modern Nazis who no longer hate Jewish people and interpret Hitler's writing totally differently. They ignore all the bad parts and just focus on the parts they like, like Hitler's stance against smoking. But there are still a minority of them who go around attacking Jewish people. Does that make them good? Does that make that small attacking "Ok" and Nazism a benefit to society? I don't think so, but by your logic it does.


Are you calling anti-smokers Nazi?

Because being a Nazi necessarily entails being anti-Jewish, it is one of the few central thoughts that Hitler put forth.

In that case, they wouldn't even be Nazi, because being Nazi entails being anti-Jew, or racist.

The nun/monk and the Spartan soldier both gave up their lives to fight for something society at the time wanted. Does the fact that they are doing different jobs mean anything?


Yes, since their jobs are different. Or are you saying a cleaner and Bill Gates are similar since they have jobs?

Lets say there are two cars in a parking lot. One is blue and one is red. You are saying we can't compare the cars because they have different colors, which makes not since.


Nope. Because in this case it is more like a truck compared to a toy car.

So why not just wipe out religion and get rid of this problem?


It is not my perogative to get rid of religion. Science has perpetuated lots of morally wrong crimes too, or allowed it so. The Atomic Bomb, Agent Orange, biological weapons.

The side effects are better, beer has less war, less hatred, and less general death associated with it.


And unfortunately, beer does not inspire people like religion does, it doesn't give one hope or drive in life like religion does.

Because science actually gets the job done, while religion doesn't. Science has knocked down every claim made by religion, people just ignore it and walk away.

Has it knocked down the claim that a deity can exist? No.

Why doesn't moving a pointer show care? It has the exact same effects as the prayer, nothing, and if you pretend it helps it allows them to know you care.


Because prayer has a connotation of caring, just like a handshake connotates an introduction to people. Laser pointing on the other hand does not.

It was completely and utterly ignored for one hundred and fifty years.




In 1787, a group of twelve men, mostly Quakers and Anglicans founded the Committee for the Abolition of the Slave Trade. They included the veteran anti-slavery campaigner Granville Sharp and Thomas Clarkson who devoted his life to the cause. They recruited the MP for Hull, William Wilberforce, to lead the campaign in the House of Commons. Within twenty years of the establishment of this group, the slave trade had been abolished.


Someone got his dates and numbers wrong.
zakyman
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zakyman
1,627 posts
Peasant

314d1, again, why do you have a problem with letting other people believe in a religion? Your own quotes from the Torah are also mainly hypotheticals...

If there be found among you ... that ... hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them ... Then shalt thou ... tone them with stones, till they die. Deuteronomy 17:2-5

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers ... thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 13:5-10

Don't obey your elders:

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 21:18-21

Break sabbath:

They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.... And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. Numbers 15:32-56

Insult a god or a king(leader):

Thou didst blaspheme God and the king. And then carry him out, and stone him, that he may die. 1 Kings 21:10



In the ones that I highlighted, the rabbis of old agreed that none of this had never happened. I trust their word more than yours since you seem to be on an anti-religion rant right now. The only one which did happen is the Shabbat one, however that didn't happen often, and it still doesn't matter. The ways of the world have evolved! YOU DON'T HAVE TO TAKE EVERYTHING IN CONTEXT!!!

Again, I ask, WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM WITH RELIGION!
nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

Again, I ask, WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM WITH RELIGION!


Chillz man. He was a Christian turn atheist, so I guess he has reasons, though of course that doesn't mean that one should expect others not to believe in God.
sensanaty
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sensanaty
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Nomad

WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM WITH RELIGION!


The fact that he's an atheist. He finds religion illogical, just as I do. He just shows his thoughts a little more extremely than I do.

I have a question for the Christians: Why will non-Christians end up burning in hell, only for they did not believe in the Omnipotent being we named God?
thebluerabbit
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thebluerabbit
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Farmer

not christian but i THINK i know this one. if you believe in jesus then your automatically christian (i think). if im not wrong jesus died for our sins (dont ask me... idk why that makes sense and i do disagree with that way of thinking) so we can go to heaven (i think that they say that if he wouldnt die we wouldnt be able to reach heaven which is another thing i disagree on). if you dont believe in jesus then you cant accept him dieing for your sins. so you will go to hell because your a sinner.

in other words... we are all horibble people who sin and our only hope is to accept the fact that someone died because of our evilness (i think).

master565
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master565
4,104 posts
Nomad

WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM WITH RELIGION!

He was a Christian turn atheist, so I guess he has reasons


If I've been told right, i think i know the reason, I'm not sure i should share it though, i guess he'll share if he wants to.
zakyman
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zakyman
1,627 posts
Peasant

Listen guys, thanks for trying to help out, but this is a question for him, and only for him to answer...

Bladerunner679
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Bladerunner679
2,487 posts
Blacksmith

I was gone for less than 24 hours, and this thread became a flamer war between a credible, and reasonable member of WEPR, and a member of AG that is more or less the flamer version of Highfire. allow me to end this, since it was my post in the beginning that caused it.

314d1, you are obviously still very sore over the experience that caused you to dramatically change your views. allow me to explain to you the difference between beer and religion.

You may say beer is better, but the simple fact is religion has been around much longer than beer. they are two completely different things, and the fact that you can justify comparing the two is a total fallacy of logic.

you may say using a laser pointer has the same result as prayer, and for all we know you may be right, but don't you dare justify calling something that has been used as a source of comfort for hundreds of years the same as shooting a beam of light in a fool's eye. prayer gives comfort, it isn't a spell. just like if the world was about to end in a religious manner, don't tell me you won't get on your knee on the spot and pray for forgiveness. it comforts you just before you die, and you die with no regrets after the repentance process. using a laser pointer won't give you comfort when the world is about to end.

see you use a lot of twisted logic in your posts, so I believe I can justify doing so as well so you may understand me.

one more thing before I end this post:

spartans and nuns gave their life to serve the cause they thought was right, but the difference between the two was one went in the quest of helping the people around them in the name of the lord, and the other went to kill in the name of whoever is king. the part that they gave their lives in the name of the job is the only similarity, everything else is not comparable by logic.

in closing, I wish for the sake of everyone here who is tired of hearing you ***** on and on of how religion is bad, I would appreciate it if you would walk a mile in somebody else's shoes. religion comforted them in the long term, and beer comforts them in the short term, with long term consequences. I know you hate religion, but please quit complaining about the fact that not all of us agree with you in this view.

this is my comments, feel free to oppose if you choose to.

-Blade

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