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nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

Since this topic hasn't been popping up much, and since the old threads are all so cluttered up, I took the liberty of creating this new one.

So yes, someone asked me for sources about my claims that 1500 species of animals practice homosexual behaviour? Here.


Source 1

Source 2

Now on to one of the sub questions. Is it natural? Well, someone mentioned that it wasn't natural only for humans. Now, why this discrimination? If the Gods of various religions keep throwing and creating people who are homosexual, either a) They're bad factory operators or b) Something is fishy with whatever anti-gay talk religious conservatives swear is sacred.

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MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

note that paedophilic behaviours are by definition pathological given the above, as we currently consider engaging in sexual behaviours with a minor to constitute abuse of the minor, which has led to the interesting phenomenon of activist groups attempting to argue that this shouldn't be the case and the definitions need to be reviewed (after all it wasn't a problem in Ancient Greece or Rome!)


If I remember correctly pedophilia is the only one that is regarded as a mental illness.

Perhaps what is and is not allowed could be based on informed consent? For instance it's unlikely an animal or child could be well informed on sexual matters, at most operating on instinct. Thus such acts would not be permissible.
Strop
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Strop
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Bard

Honestly, I don't know what to think.


I'm inclined to believe the claims given aggressive, horny dolphins making advances on people is a well-documented phenomenon. The same applying to several other species including donkeys, deer, dogs... not that I'd recommend this but these incidences actually garner a lot of attention on YouTube (if you're willing to venture into "the weird part of YouTube&quot.

I'm actually fine with homosexuality but I'm not fine with bestiality incest and necrophilia.


It's okay (to an extent, depending on the extent of your objections) to be not-okay with stuff, as long as you're prepared not to pretend that you have an entirely rational basis to your objection. Necrophilia, for example, carries the least potential real risk to anybody or anything. Its only illegal aspect is in grave digging and improper treatment of a dead body where such clauses may apply (a certain series of allegations that caused the University of New South Wales' School of Anatomy to temporarily close down comes to mind).

In the past it was normal for people to marry within their families, and most royalty did so.


In the past in many cultures bestiality was not only okay, it was desirable. Though for some funny reason I can't think of any cultures in which necrophilia was considered mainstream acceptable :P
Strop
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Strop
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Bard

Perhaps what is and is not allowed could be based on informed consent? For instance it's unlikely an animal or child could be well informed on sexual matters, at most operating on instinct. Thus such acts would not be permissible.


The problem is unless you're willing to generate special cases for sexual behaviours, you'd generate an inconsistency in the schema of how to treat animals (i.e. that aren't granted the status of an adult human) given we do most everything with them "without their informed consent". At its strictest, any act of interaction with them would then not be permissible (this problem then extending to human minors). My answer to this is that informed consent is a concept only applicable to those who are classified as able to utilise it i.e. adult persons who are compus mentis.

The other set of problems like in that what we consider "instinct" in animal behaviours is readily being deconstructed as we discover more and more about them being "meaningful." Also, if an animal operates on this so-called "instinct" and applies their behaviour in a way that is not normally applied to (think, for example, a male dog humping a table instead of another female dog)... what can you really say about it?

Another tangential note: Peter Singer infamously remarked, actually in an interview wherein he was explaining a utilitarian conception of animal ethics, that he could assert that bestiality was more acceptable than eating meat because the latter resulted in the death of an animal, and the former did not necessarily cause any demonstrable harm, in fact one might even be able to argue that it may constitute a net gain (in terms of gratification offsetting risks I suppose)... this led people to incorrectly believe that Peter Singer was a proponent of bestiality, lol.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
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In the past in many cultures bestiality was not only okay, it was desirable. Though for some funny reason I can't think of any cultures in which necrophilia was considered mainstream acceptable :P


Ah the nostalgia. JK. Given that in the past, religion was central to the lives of almost anyone, and that the dead were given their respects as far as possible to make it to the next world, I don't think anyone would want to trifle with a corpse.

Though reportedly, acts of necrophilia are displayed on Moche artifacts of Peru. It was reportedly used as a method to communicate with the dead
Strop
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Strop
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That's entirely plausible nicho.

Though reportedly, acts of necrophilia are displayed on Moche artifacts of Peru. It was reportedly used as a method to communicate with the dead


Details please! Though maybe it's not relevant to the thread, so on my profile. This is something I don't know anything about.
Dewi1066
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Dewi1066
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As to whether homosexuality is some sort of mental illness, I don't think so. I'm straight. Yet, I've done some very crazy things I shouldn't have to have sex and had sex in really crazy places I shouldn't have and had sex with some really crazy women I shouldn't have. No one considers me to have a mental illness or at the very least not one relating to sexual behavior. I'm sure some of the same could be said for homosexuals except it was with the same sex.


But homosexuality not being a mental illness goes without saying, it isn't even something that could be taken seriously as part of a debate.

Necrophilia, bestiality and paedophilia could be debated as mental illnesses of sorts because why would you want to fiddle with the dead, animals or children? It would take a fairly deranged mind to class any of that behaviour as acceptable.
thebluerabbit
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thebluerabbit
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Necrophilia, bestiality and paedophilia could be debated as mental illnesses of sorts because why would you want to fiddle with the dead, animals or children? It would take a fairly deranged mind to class any of that behaviour as acceptable.


that is your opinion. a different person can say the same thing changing dead,animals and children to people of the same gender. in the end those are just fetishes that some people have and some dont. i dont think pedophilia can be seen as an illness either. i mean, you dont actually have to **** children to be a pedophile (right?).

if you think about it with an open mind why would most guys find 2 ballons of fat in the middle of someones body attractive? and why would most girls find a long stick that comes out of nowhere? (again, think about it with an open mind. im not saying that all streight guys/girls think that way).

you cant really argue with taste. necrophilia is EXTREMELY weird in my opinion but i dont think that preferences is something you can argue about.
Dewi1066
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Dewi1066
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Nomad

So homosexuality is all about the act of sex then in your opinion?

thebluerabbit
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thebluerabbit
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Farmer

no...?

im not sure what your point is. im not too bright so you will have to explain X3

johnmerz
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johnmerz
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lol This debate is interesting... I don't have much to say on the topic though. *goes back to lurk mode*

Dewi1066
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Dewi1066
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Nomad

im not sure what your point is. im not too bright so you will have to explain X3


You commented the following:

if you think about it with an open mind why would most guys find 2 ballons of fat in the middle of someones body attractive? and why would most girls find a long stick that comes out of nowhere? (again, think about it with an open mind. im not saying that all streight guys/girls think that way).


Is that all attraction is then? Whether someone has certain body parts? If you're not attracted to the body, you can't fall in love or have a successful relationship (whether it be same sex or not)?

you cant really argue with taste. necrophilia is EXTREMELY weird in my opinion but i dont think that preferences is something you can argue about.


So lets take that its extreme then. One of your relatives dies and you find out the undertaker's assistant has been having sex with their dead body. Still a preference you can't argue about? Would you argue with their taste then?
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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My answer to this is that informed consent is a concept only applicable to those who are classified as able to utilise it i.e. adult persons who are compus mentis.


That was kind of where I was coming from, though I do see how forming special cases could be an issue.
thebluerabbit
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thebluerabbit
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Is that all attraction is then? Whether someone has certain body parts? If you're not attracted to the body, you can't fall in love or have a successful relationship (whether it be same sex or not)?


you can love someone. but i do think that without the passion for their body its not close to love.

So lets take that its extreme then. One of your relatives dies and you find out the undertaker's assistant has been having sex with their dead body. Still a preference you can't argue about? Would you argue with their taste then?


i would argue with what they did. but not with their taste. it would bother me but the fact that this is the guys taste is not making it an ok thing. just like wha ti said about pedohipia. you dont have to **** a child to have that philia and as long as you dont hurt others by taking actions that start from it (not that you cant not hurt someone with it) its just another guys taste.

the guy might find little children attractive but weather he will do anything about it is a whole different question and i dont think its wrong to find them attractive. it IS wrong to hurt them though. and i cant argue with the fact that they find them attractive. its their taste and taste is not supposed to be logical.

passion is about the physical body and most philias are directly connected to that. homosexuals can be affectionate towards anyone but they NEED a body of the same gender to be passionate about in a real loving relationship. its almost like having a philia. you dont have to "use" it in your love life but it will enhance the feeling and passion you get.
thebluerabbit
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thebluerabbit
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you can love someone. but i do think that without the passion for their body its not close to love.


ill have to explain this one better XP.

there is family, friendly love. and with that love you can live a nice life with a partner that you love that way. the second love is the first with the combination of passion.
Strop
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Strop
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in the end those are just fetishes that some people have and some dont. i dont think pedophilia can be seen as an illness either. i mean, you dont actually have to **** children to be a pedophile (right?).


Quoting this because while it may appear pedantic this is actually quite important. Earlier on this page somebody asked whether orientation was purely about the act of sex: some say yes most say no. With regard to mental illness, as far as paedophilia is concerned the act itself would imply mental illness because by definition (no comment here on whether or not I agree with said definition) it constitutes abuse of a child, though this said there exist several special cases in which the court has recognised that the child was a) the aggressor b) precocious c) an active agent who acted meaningfully, making the would-be perpetrator the victim instead, in these cases the "sexual assault of a minor" conviction was overturned.

This is purely due to a feature of how we define children, and the special place children occupy as humans who are not adults: they have protected rights, but said protected rights are not part of a consistent schema. I would have said that their informed consent belongs to their legal guardian who is generally their registered parent, but this only applies so far, since it's obviously illegal to pimp your kids out as that in itself constitutes child abuse (several parents having been arrested and convicted on this charge). Deep down (at least, the only way it really makes sense, which some courts seem to have forgotten about in handing down nonsensical judgements on material that does not involve live minors, but instead fictional characters) it's because of concerns regarding the behaviours of children and how they would be affected in later life if groomed for sexual acts at a young age. At the same time though compare this to exposure to sexually evocative (or blatantly explicit) material at whatever age, and the dropping median age of onset of sexual activity, and it's not hard to see why in the fine print of legality, even more special subclauses exist regarding the legality and illegality of underaged sex. It's dreadfully cumbersome but the only meaningful change to this status quo that could be effected is if society as a whole changed its attitudes about sexual behaviours and children... and right now that's too controversial a topic to make any real headway on.

Oh man I got sidetracked. The original point: no you don't have to actually do a sexual act to identify with having the paraphilia. Expressing a desire, or a fantasy, with enough persistence for it to form a part of your identity might be enough to satisfy a psychiatrist. This said, for legal purposes it's only relevant if you've been demonstrated this in some tangible way either in the act, or, depending on jurisdiction, possessing material depicting said acts (with varying degrees of unreasonableness, again depending on jurisdiction).

So lets take that its extreme then. One of your relatives dies and you find out the undertaker's assistant has been having sex with their dead body. Still a preference you can't argue about? Would you argue with their taste then?


There's a fallacy afoot in this. Think about the specific grounds of the objection in your specific example. You would probably say "Hey, stop having sex with my relative's corpse" but you need to realise that you would probably react the same way if you found said undertaker had been mistreating the corpse in any other way. The real issue, in your example, is a breach of trust and the violation of something that you had great attachment to when the person was alive. Not, as you might initially think, that said violation was a sexual act.
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