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stormwolf722
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stormwolf722
227 posts
Nomad

Well a lot of people have been telling me evolution is real. They give me the most craziest surreal 'facts'. Has anyone discovered any fish with legs? Any humans with gills or fins? If you put all the pieces of a watch into you're pocket and shake it around for trillions of years, will it ever become a watch? Is there but one possibility? Or if you completely dismantle a chicken and a fish, and put it into a box, shaking it around for trillions of years. Will it ever become a fish with wings? or a chicken with fins? :l

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master565
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master565
4,104 posts
Nomad

There is no peak to evolution. It's not a ladder like process.


I meant that they can't advance much through evolution anymore.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

I meant that they can't advance much through evolution anymore.


Sure they could, Let's take one of your reasons for example.

It's reached an ideal size, any larger and the signal between one side of the brain and the other would be too long.


Even if there was a slowing in processing time, we could run into situations where having more storage capacity could be more beneficial and selected for.

There is also the possibility that structuring could change over time. I wouldn't have to increase amounts, just change so it works better for what we need it for.

There is also the possibility where traits for a less developed brain could be selected for.
Seroph
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Seroph
54 posts
Scribe

If I were to guess it would likely be minor changes such as becoming more resistant to certain diseases


While we will become more resistant to current diseases, I think we'll become more susceptible to new strains of bacteria and viruses as these populations continue to become more and more drug resistant. As a pharmacy student, we've spent a lot of time looking into bacterial populations becoming resistant to penicillin-like antibiotics which leaves us with a lot less to work with. If bacteria evolves faster than we can innovate new pharmaceutics, we'll be in trouble.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
8,256 posts
Regent

Since human populations around the world have been separated until fairly recently, causing divergence among races,

I don't know if in English races is a synonym with ethnies, but biologically there is no reason to even mention races when talking about human populations, so I wouldn't use it.

I read in a science magazine a few months ago that out brains may have reached the peak of evolution.

Apart from what Mage already said, or just to formulate a bit differently, it simply and only means that right now, our brain might be very well adapted and has no pressure to change much, but this is temporary and reversible.

If bacteria evolves faster than we can innovate new pharmaceutics, we'll be in trouble.

I heard somewhere they've found a few substances that could replace penicillin but until they've tested, developed, and marketed it it could go some time.. let's hope doctors and patient will prescribe/use the new ones more reasonably than the current antibiotics.
Seroph
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Seroph
54 posts
Scribe

I don't know if in English races is a synonym with ethnies, but biologically there is no reason to even mention races when talking about human populations, so I wouldn't use it.


I was trying to explain that the differences seen in people from different parts of the world were caused by the varying environmental factors of their respective regions. Thus, if we had never become a globalized world, populations would have continued to diverge into new species if given enough time. Now that the many diverse populations are connected, we'll converge towards a more similar state.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

macfan1 asked that I read this entire site (http://www.icr.org/) and give my critique of it. I started to look it over and noticed right off the bat that it was giving the same old tired arguments I've seen from countless other creationist sites. I pointed out how they are using half truths, lies and preconceived notions.
I've decided to point my critique here instead of on his profile as I wanted to give this justice and I'm offered more room on a thread post than on a profile post. This also gives others a chance to comment and critique, which will be good since I don't have time to do the entire site myself.

I will start with this one.
http://www.icr.org/scientific-knowledge/

Scientific knowledge is not a collection of subjective opinions. Rather, it is a collection of explanations about objective reality that is based on observed or predicted phenomena. In addition, the explanation must be verified repeatedly to confirm that it correctly models reality.

As our technical ability to observe reality improves, we are able to increase the quality and quantity of our observations. Better-observed data challenge our explanations, some of which will no longer fit the observed facts. New theories are then formed and either verified or falsified.

While our scientific knowledge changes rapidly, the absolute reality that is being modeled has never changed. The scientific method assumes an absolute reality against which theories can be verified.


This does a pretty good job of giving a basic definition of how science works, until the end. It asserts here that "The scientific method assumes an absolute reality against which theories can be verified." This isn't the case. Science works on degrees true, but does not on an absolute. What this means is that those observations and everything are tentative meaning they are open to change. "the absolute reality that is being modeled has never changed." Is something we don't know, but hasn't been observed. As a result we can hold out the tentative truth that the underline reality hasn't changed since this fits with current observation of reality.

This is of course an attempt to make science look faith based so that they can try to elevate their faith based views to the same status as sciences empirical views. This is of course very deceitful.


Next up we have "The Universe from Nothing"
http://www.icr.org/article/6600/

There are quite number of flaws made in this. I see a few straight out lies int this one.


That required immense imagination and deliberately ignoring a wide range of scientific observations that contradict the Big Bang, such as the universe's clumpy mass distribution and galaxies that appear to be billions of years more mature than the model predicts.


This has several problems in it. The first point they make of deliberately ignoring things that contradict the Big Bang model is just an out right lie. This uses several cations.
The first of which I'm unable to establish validity, which could mean this letter could be dubious to begin with. The letter being from 2004 is also out dating in it's claims by further finding. This seems to be asking for those involved to look more into alternatives than an attempt to discount the Big Bang model. Yes there are other competing models, the Big Bang theory happens to be the most accepted right now based on the evidence.
The second citation is not discrediting the Big Bang model in the least. The point the site makes of "galaxies that appear to be billions of years more mature than the model predicts." is not at all what the site is stating.
The third citation is another creationist site. Need I say more?

Krauss cited Edwin Hubble's now famous scientific observation of redshifted starlight, which is a repeatable observation and is therefore science. But to interpret this as being caused by expansion is not directly scientific. And to extrapolate an expanding universe backward in time all the way to when everything supposedly burst forth from nothing is philosophically motivated history, not science at all!


Here we get into just a flat out lie. Interpreting the data and making a prediction from that is such as an expansion and then taking that and rewinding the model is exactly science. One of sciences strengths is in it's predictive power.

Since this is an evolution thread I will pick a topic that actually deals with evolution.

An example of the preconceive notions.

http://www.icr.org/article/6604/

Human feet would quickly freeze if exposed to snow and ice without proper gear, but dogs don't seem to mind the cold. Since the pads of their feet aren't protected by fur like the rest of their bodies, it would seem that they'd be especially susceptible to freezingâ"but they aren't. Japanese researchers recently discovered why.

It turns out that dog paws have tiny blood vessels arranged as counter-current heat exchangers. This way, dogs' internal body heat is not lost through the soles of their feet. Instead, cold blood is warmed right in their paws before it re-enters the main blood supply. Plus, most of the core body blood recirculates back into the body, instead of straight to the feet, to keep the animals' temperature consistently warm even when walking on ice.

In their study published in the journal Veterinary Dermatology, the researchers found the dogs' "wonderful network" of veins by injecting something like liquid rubber into the blood vessels of the dogs' feet.1 They were then able to examine the three-dimensional vessel network after the chemical hardened. The vessels "formed a vein-artery-vein triad" where heat could flow at just the right pace across the system.2

This discovery only adds to the long list of known dog features that identify them as intentionally created creatures, including the dog's straight back that "better absorbs the power that is generated by the hindquarters when the animal is moving."3 Animal anatomist Daniel Schmitt called dog locomotion "an evolutionary miracle in my view."4

Also, a dog's sense of smell is so acute that it can distinguish between identical twins,5 and its hearing is so well-developed that it can hear sounds up to 40,000 cycles per secondâ"twice what human ears can hear. And their ear structure enables them to hear "about 4 times farther than humans are capable of hearing."6

Superior dog engineering, from head to toe, should point thinking people to a superior Engineer.


Basically all they have done here is take a bunch of feature of a dog and simply asserted that they must be designed because they are features that are better then what a human has. Just because an another animal has features that function better than what a human has does not equal a creator. Such features can easily be explained through evolutionary processes. In fact one of there own citations does just this. (which the site quote mines)

http://today.duke.edu/2008/12/catwalk.html

Okay that's three examples of how this site is not trustworthy. I was tired when I started and now have blood shot eyes. So I bid you good day. (at least for a few hours)
macfan1
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macfan1
421 posts
Nomad

Ok, you did a lot of reaserch.

Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

Ok, you did a lot of reaserch.


That's all you've got to say?

Not, "Oh, I didn't realize that they quote mine the heck out of everything" or "Why are they disregarding parts of each thing, or not even bothering to mention them?" or "Wow. I guess I can't trust anything they say unless I research it myself and find the same answers from a non-biased site, which preferably isn't creationist as this will lead to the same bias which I'm trying to avoid."

None of that?
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

I forgot to note on the Universe from nothing point.

Nothing is supposed to mean just thatâ""no thing," which involves the complete absence of any matter or force or space.


The reference of "nothing" is on a quantum level. In Quantum mechanics nothing is something. This is where things like zero point energy and virtual particles comes into play. Anyway I could have a pretty long off topic post on that article alone.
macfan1
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macfan1
421 posts
Nomad

Is there anything you thought that you can't contradict?

Roccess
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Roccess
240 posts
Peasant

This may be a bit off topic, but I think if humans survive another couple million years we will be better swimmers, and maybe able to drink salt-water.

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

@macfan1

How about you give it a try. Where do you see them go wrong on this article?

http://www.icr.org/article/does-the-beak-finch-prove-darwin-was-right/

As the naturalist on the Beagle, Charles Darwin made numerous valuable observations of as yet undiscovered plants and animals. Along the way, the Beagle anchored for an extended stay in the Galapagos Islands, 600 miles off the western coast of South America. While the crew mapped these rugged volcanic islands, Darwin studied the unique animals living there, especially the numerous varieties of finches, today classed as fourteen different species. Numerous features suggested to Darwin that these birds were related to each other and related to similar birds in South America. Yet they showed significant differences between them, including some features not found in South America. Of particular interest were the beaks. Some were small, others parrot-like. Some were curved, one had a boring beak.

Some creationists of Darwin's day held to the absolute immutability of species, that God had created each species for each specific ecological habitat, and no significant changes had ever occurred or could ever occur. But, to Darwin, these animals appeared to be related and now showed much variety. They further appeared to have migrated from South America and acquired other traits after arrival. He could not reconcile the evidence with this particular creationist teaching. Thus his concept of evolution by natural selection began to take form.

But today's creationists, and even some in Darwin's day, freely allow for limited change within created kinds, or basic categories. It is within the creationist model to propose that the present varieties of finch descended from one or more ancestral categories of finch and that migration of animals into new areas can and does happen. Creationists agree fully with Darwin over the finches. But they disagree with the wholly unsupported evolutionary speculation that finches evolved from fish and ultimately from single-celled organisms. Rather, the evidence better fits the idea that each basic category of animal was created as that category. Changes are limited by the genetic information present at the start.

What, then, are we to make of the recent newspaper articles worldwide proclaiming that a new study of finches and their beaks have shown "Darwin was Right"? A team of Princeton scientists have won a prestigious award for 20 years of study of the finch's beaks on one tiny island in the Galapagos chain, home of only a few finch species, and a best-selling novel entitled The Beak of the Finch tells their story and explains their findings. Just what was found?

The two scholars, Drs. Peter and Rosemary Grant observed how, under drought conditions, birds with larger beaks were better adapted than others, thus their percentage increased. But this trend reversed when the cyclical conditions reversed. Furthermore, in times of drought, the normally separate species were observed to cross-breed. They are related after all. Darwin was right!

But is this really evolution? Even after the changes there is still the same array of beak sizes and shapes. This is variation and adaptation, not evolution.

Actually, de-evolution has occurred; the observation is that there are larger groupings of species into what may be more reminiscent of the originally created kind. Creation agrees with Darwin's observations and with the newer observations, but evolution doesn't, even though the Grants interpret this as rapid evolution. Wonderful study-great data, wrong interpretation.
macfan1
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macfan1
421 posts
Nomad

The de-evolution in the last paragraph? I'm not so sure. I don't have a PHD.

macfan1
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macfan1
421 posts
Nomad

I just thought of this. If humans evolved from apes, then why do apes still exist? And the hyena that evolved into a whale, why is hyenas still around. Aren't they supposed to all have changed into whales by now?

macfan1
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macfan1
421 posts
Nomad

Oh I thought I'd show this to everyone.


If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.
-- Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species

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