ForumsWEPRRacial Stereotypes

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Dewi1066
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Dewi1066
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Nomad

I know this could be a touchy subject, but I mean this thread to be more about learning about each other than anything else.

I'm English and I'm genuinely interested to learn of the racial stereotypes about the people I live and work around.

Please note, whilst I'm welcoming posts about racial stereotypes, I don't mean racial insults. For instance, a racial stereotype where I am is that those in the south of the USA tend to be less tolerant than those in the north. It isn't insulting, it is almost asking a question.

Fully appreciate that the mods may view this thread as a step too far.

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Dewi1066
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Nomad

We don't accept or reject the stereotype. It is forced upon us based on foreign perceptions. They think we're polite because we say our pleases and thank yous. They mistake simple cultural conditioning for genuine good mannered behaviour.


I agree that stereotypes are forced upon us, but I disagree that we don't accept or reject them.

People get angry often when referred to as a stereotype, arguing that they are nothing like that stereotype. That is rejecting it. And for the opposite, I would suspect the majority of black men are happy to accept the stereotype about their genitals.

We accept the good, reject the bad, perhaps not all the time, but we do it.

In my opinion they do far more harm than good. I fail to see how lazy generlisations can do otherwise.


Which reinforces my first point. How can something cause harm or good if we neither reject or accept it? Being forced to listen to a stereotype is one thing, but how we react to it is quite another.

I find the majority of the stereotypes about the English to be very amusing and I wouldn't necessarily reject any of them. Not because I think any of them are terribly accurate, as you say, lazy generalisations... but because for they're harmless words.

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.

* I completely forgot the last line of that because I'm so used to adding 'but whips and chains sure please me' for a laugh!
FireflyIV
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FireflyIV
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Nomad

I agree that stereotypes are forced upon us, but I disagree that we don't accept or reject them.


You admit they are forced upon us, yet contend people accept or reject them? I don't think we're on the same page. My point is that like the stereotype of your nation(/region/race/whatever) or not, your opinion does not have any weight in the formation of the stereotype itself.

Which reinforces my first point. How can something cause harm or good if we neither reject or accept it?


Aside from the laziness I associate with stereotyping, I think it can be said with some certainty that harmful stereotypes do exist and have harmful consequences. To disagree would be foolhardy, particularly with regards to racial stereotyping (I often find national stereoyping to fall under the category of harmless banter, though not always). Despite the belief among much of the bien pensant middle classes about living in a post racial society, hailing from an extremely multi ethnic part of East London, I can tell you race is still a hot issue and stereotyping does nothing but perpetuate racial profiling among the police and mindless hatred between different ethnic communities.

In another sense I also believe that racial stereotypes are self fulfilling prophecies. They form over long periods of time in a specific social context. Blacks aren't more prone to being criminals. Arabs aren't more prone to blowing themselves up. When the social setting maintains these stereotypes however, it just makes people think it's hopeless to try and get to the core of why different groups are more prone to behaviours and trying to fix the injustice behind it.
Dewi1066
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Dewi1066
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Nomad

You admit they are forced upon us, yet contend people accept or reject them? I don't think we're on the same page. My point is that like the stereotype of your nation(/region/race/whatever) or not, your opinion does not have any weight in the formation of the stereotype itself.


Forced in the sense that we have no choice whether someone develops a stereotype about our race, religion or nationality, or anything else for that matter, but we have a free choice whether to accept or reject them. People are more inclined to accept positive stereotypes rather than negative is, and was, my original point.

Despite the belief among much of the bien pensant middle classes about living in a post racial society, hailing from an extremely multi ethnic part of East London, I can tell you race is still a hot issue and stereotyping does nothing but perpetuate racial profiling among the police and mindless hatred between different ethnic communities.


I'm fully aware of racial tensions throughout the UK being that many areas are now 'extremely multi ethnic' due to our previous government's unchecked immigration policies over the past decade, but again, people are happy to accept positive stereotyping but rally against negative stereotyping. The only reason that stereotyping and the like is such a 'hot issue' in certain areas of the country is because rather than having an open discussion about the cultural differences between the new arrivals and the existing residents, the glorious PC brigade decided to band around the 'racist' word so much that people are now sick to the back teeth of it.

It also doesn't help matters in the UK when there appears to a rule for one and another for another, which seems to be happening more and more, but that is an entirely different subject.

As far as:

Blacks aren't more prone to being criminals


or:

Arabs aren't more prone to blowing themselves up.


... the opposite is true depending on your geographical location. In those places, these are not stereotypes, they're statistical facts.
FireflyIV
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Nomad

People are more inclined to accept positive stereotypes rather than negative is, and was, my original point.


Again, I don't think you're understanding me. People like positive stereotypes about themselves rather than negative ones. That much is obvious and I'm not disputing that. But my point is that stereotypes are created by outside perceptions. So whether or not you like them or not, they exist in society and affect the way people interact with people of different racial orientation. Acceptance or rejection by the race in question doesn't change this.

The only reason that stereotyping and the like is such a 'hot issue' in certain areas of the country is because rather than having an open discussion about the cultural differences between the new arrivals and the existing residents, the glorious PC brigade decided to band around the 'racist' word so much that people are now sick to the back teeth of it.


I wholeheartedly agree that there needs to be more open and honest debate about this. But this is certainly not the only reason race is a hot issue. It's not just between newly arrived migrants and the 'natives'. Any person who isn't white and speaks with an English accent suffers from stereotyping in various shapes and forms. Consider that racists wouldn't stop to ask a black or pakistani person whether or not they were born and raised in the UK before spitting abuse at them. Indeed, consider the recently resolved Stephen Lawrence case (justice at last!). He was born and bred in London before being cut down by racist thugs. As were his parents who were treated atrociously by the institutionally racist Met police force during the investigation.

... the opposite is true depending on your geographical location. In those places, these are not stereotypes, they're statistical facts.


That's another aspect of stereotyping I'm definitely not a fan of. Profiling policies, even when there is a strong correlation are very difficult to implement effectively since the population groups we're talking about are so large. For example with regards to the terrorism issue. If we assume that the proportion of the Muslim population of the UK is actively seeking to instil terror is 1% (a very liberal estimate I'm sure), you would have to target the other 99% more rigorously with arbitrary security checks. This in itself doesn't drastically increase the likelihood of catching the terrorists, and it exacerbates inter community relations since the policy will be seen to be making unfair generalisations.
Dewi1066
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Dewi1066
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Nomad

Any person who isn't white and speaks with an English accent suffers from stereotyping in various shapes and forms. Consider that racists wouldn't stop to ask a black or pakistani person whether or not they were born and raised in the UK before spitting abuse at them.


This is an incredibly one sided argument, missing out that it works both ways. Racism in the UK isn't just those who aren't white. A 90 year man was beaten to a pulp in Greater Manchester for wandering into an 'Asian territory' (<words of the young men who committed the assault) and I can assure you that just as many white people (and their children) are spat on for being white. We could probably argue on government statistics, but I'd challenge the people who collate these statistics to spend a weekend in Bradford, Blackburn or a variety of neighbourhoods across Greater Manchester.

the institutionally racist Met police force


The same institutionally racist police force that has spent in excess of £50 million worth of taxpayers funds to follow this investigation through to a conviction whilst neglecting many other cases to favour the Stephen Lawrence one? Yes, the parents of Lawrence have their justice against the racists who attacked him, but at what cost to the rest of the population?

I would like to debate and discuss this further with you, but I fear we're straying off topic in this particular thread. Perhaps we should start a new thread that is more focused on what we're discussing?

It's not just between newly arrived migrants and the 'natives'.


What is a British native? I'm not sure there are any left are there? We have existing residents and new arrivals, but neither can claim to be native to the land as the British Isles has had waves of immigrants for thousands of years. The difference more recently has been the sheer volume of immigrants who have moved here and been distributed around the country by the previous government with no forward planning put in place to manage the integration of new arrivals into a community. Regardless of race, colour or creed, any community receiving an influx of new arrivals needs at the very least some time to prepare services, housing and community gathering points. It also needs the new arrivals to be treated the same as existing residents rather than be given preferential treatment simply for being new arrivals.

Again, I'm straying way off point, my apologies. Its such a huge issue though that stereotyping barely skims the surface.
FireflyIV
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Nomad

This is an incredibly one sided argument, missing out that it works both ways. Racism in the UK isn't just those who aren't white.


I'll admit that my view will be London centric and I understand the relations with asian communities are more strained up North. Nevertheless I maintain that the majority of racial abuse which occurs is perpetrated by the natives.

and I can assure you that just as many white people (and their children) are spat on for being white. We could probably argue on government statistics,


I would be very interested to see some stats backing up this claim. I very much doubt that more racial abuse is perpetrated by Asians than natives.

Yes, the parents of Lawrence have their justice against the racists who attacked him, but at what cost to the rest of the population?


I think you would find this video very informative. The Stephen Lawrence case did a great deal of good in revealing to Middle England what life is like for minorities, and indeed implementing agreat deal of successful progressive policy, in botht he police force and the judicial system.

What is a British native?


In this context, I'm talking about the people who are born of British parentage, English on both sides. You're right there are far less than there was 50 years ago, but I believe at the last census around 85% of the population were found to be both British citizens and ethnically British.

And yes I agree it's a little off topic and Anglocentric for this thread, but these examples I think are relevant to stereotyping.
Dewi1066
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Dewi1066
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Nomad

I'll admit that my view will be London centric and I understand the relations with asian communities are more strained up North. Nevertheless I maintain that the majority of racial abuse which occurs is perpetrated by the natives.


And the statistics provided by the government would back up your claim, but is it necessarily true of the whole of the UK, or just the London area?

I would be very interested to see some stats backing up this claim. I very much doubt that more racial abuse is perpetrated by Asians than natives.


Statistics that prove instances of spitting? I don't think there are statistics available, but I'll look. As far as the pensioner who was beaten, it isn't an isolated incident. Try Googling Walter Chamberlain, 76 years of age or Anthony O'Brien, 69 years of age. A couple in Moston were attacked mindlessly, but refused to be named and I can't find the 90 year old attack incident despite it being quite prominent two years ago when I was pointed there during a political debate.

Fully aware that these instances can be matched visa versa, the only reason I'm mentioning them is to show it is far from one sided and I've deliberately excluded the death of Christopher Yates for obvious reasons.

I think you would find this video very informative. The Stephen Lawrence case did a great deal of good in revealing to Middle England what life is like for minorities, and indeed implementing agreat deal of successful progressive policy, in botht he police force and the judicial system.


There are positives, but the cost to the population as a whole is the massive amount of police time and resources to this one case has meant that many others have been neglected. The lengths the police went to, including surveillance, buying a property in London, having the men constantly followed and police officers posing as pub goers in an attempt to gain evidence has cost not only huge sums of money, but huge sums of time. The case may well have highlighted racial abuse in one tiny area of the UK, but it hasn't done anything really to tackle it or stop it happening again.

n this context, I'm talking about the people who are born of British parentage, English on both sides. You're right there are far less than there was 50 years ago, but I believe at the last census around 85% of the population were found to be both British citizens and ethnically British.


It would be interesting to compare and contrast with the previous census information to see the difference over the 10 year period, but to me a native Britain could be any colour, race or creed. We've had a rich mix of cultures for centuries, although with the attitudes of the British press, you wouldn't have thought it.

I had asian friends at school when I was a small boy. Sanja was in my class at school, his parents ran a local shop and he was just one of the gang. None of us looked at him any differently than anyone else and when it came to differences, we were more likely to take the mickey out of one of the group that was, well, vertically challenged. Funnily enough I found out recently that Sanja ended up in New York where he now owns a hotel and lives somewhere on the east coast of the US.

Maybe he was the exception to the rule, but we lived in a northern mining town where people said it as they saw it. Racism didn't appear to be in the forefront of anyone's minds back then and it was more likely you'd get some stick over being short or having ginger hair than the fact you had different coloured skin.

My first encounter with racism was ironically a black man on the bus who called me a 'Hitler baby' due to my height, hair and eye colouring. I was very small at the time and retorted that he had hair like Fuzzy Bear. That was the day I had my mouth washed out with soap when I got home, literally.

And yes I agree it's a little off topic and Anglocentric for this thread, but these examples I think are relevant to stereotyping.


I'm sure we'll be told if we are straying too far away from the topic, in which case we can start a new thread that is more focused.
FireflyIV
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Nomad

but is it necessarily true of the whole of the UK, or just the London area?


I think London is almost always a special case because of its massive size and diversity, but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't at least fairly on track with the rest of the UK.

Statistics that prove instances of spitting?


I just meant racial abuse in general. I'm guessing the government must have some criteria for what is a racially motivated crime or not which it would have statistics for. I am too lazy to find out for myself though.

The case may well have highlighted racial abuse in one tiny area of the UK, but it hasn't done anything really to tackle it or stop it happening again.


What I think the video is very good at showing is raising awareness on the issue and turning racism from something that was probably casually accepted in many walks of life and institutions prior to 1991 to being deemed too politically incorrect to tolerate in any shape or form. In finally catching the killers, the police have somewhat redeemed their image in London, (something that's been long coming, trust me), and in addition it brings the issue of race back onto the table. The fact that people are reevaluating their views and thinking about race relations is so important, especially in an England more diverse than ever before.

It would be interesting to compare and contrast with the previous census information to see the difference over the 10 year period, but to me a native Britain could be any colour, race or creed


Oh indeed so. I myself am half Greek on my mother's side, but I think what people often cannot realise is how differently your experience of life in Britain is as a minority. For example, my mother remembers the police coming round to her house after they received some complaints about 'the ******s next door' from their so called neighbours and being called a coon when she went to university in Manchester. Of course this was in the 60s and 70s, and this kind of treatment seems inconceivable now. But I always wondered that if that's what you get for being Greek, it must have been hell for black or asian families back then.

Probably the worst I have encountered in my time other than the odd football chant is stop and search laws in London. The school I went to was probably about 60% afro carribean, so naturally a lot of my school mates were black. Countless times when we were on nights out police would drive past eyeing up our group, then get out and stop and search only the black guys we were with. I found it deeply disturbing and it's why I have such an objection to racial profiling. It can seem all well and good to say it's fine to implement policy based on generalisations when you won't be affected by it, but when you've actually seen it first hand, that kind of victimisations seems deplorable.
Dewi1066
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Nomad

I'll admit that my view will be London centric and I understand the relations with asian communities are more strained up North. Nevertheless I maintain that the majority of racial abuse which occurs is perpetrated by the natives.


And the statistics provided by the government would back up your claim, but is it necessarily true of the whole of the UK, or just the London area?

I would be very interested to see some stats backing up this claim. I very much doubt that more racial abuse is perpetrated by Asians than natives.


Statistics that prove instances of spitting? I don't think there are statistics available, but I'll look. As far as the pensioner who was beaten, it isn't an isolated incident. Try Googling Walter Chamberlain, 76 years of age or Anthony O'Brien, 69 years of age. A couple in Moston were attacked mindlessly, but refused to be named and I can't find the 90 year old attack incident despite it being quite prominent two years ago when I was pointed there during a political debate.

Fully aware that these instances can be matched visa versa, the only reason I'm mentioning them is to show it is far from one sided and I've deliberately excluded the death of Christopher Yates for obvious reasons.

I think you would find this video very informative. The Stephen Lawrence case did a great deal of good in revealing to Middle England what life is like for minorities, and indeed implementing agreat deal of successful progressive policy, in botht he police force and the judicial system.


There are positives, but the cost to the population as a whole is the massive amount of police time and resources to this one case has meant that many others have been neglected. The lengths the police went to, including surveillance, buying a property in London, having the men constantly followed and police officers posing as pub goers in an attempt to gain evidence has cost not only huge sums of money, but huge sums of time. The case may well have highlighted racial abuse in one tiny area of the UK, but it hasn't done anything really to tackle it or stop it happening again.

n this context, I'm talking about the people who are born of British parentage, English on both sides. You're right there are far less than there was 50 years ago, but I believe at the last census around 85% of the population were found to be both British citizens and ethnically British.


It would be interesting to compare and contrast with the previous census information to see the difference over the 10 year period, but to me a native Britain could be any colour, race or creed. We've had a rich mix of cultures for centuries, although with the attitudes of the British press, you wouldn't have thought it.

I had asian friends at school when I was a small boy. Sanja was in my class at school, his parents ran a local shop and he was just one of the gang. None of us looked at him any differently than anyone else and when it came to differences, we were more likely to take the mickey out of one of the group that was, well, vertically challenged. Funnily enough I found out recently that Sanja ended up in New York where he now owns a hotel and lives somewhere on the east coast of the US.

Maybe he was the exception to the rule, but we lived in a northern mining town where people said it as they saw it. Racism didn't appear to be in the forefront of anyone's minds back then and it was more likely you'd get some stick over being short or having ginger hair than the fact you had different coloured skin.

My first encounter with racism was ironically a black man on the bus who called me a 'Hitler baby' due to my height, hair and eye colouring. I was very small at the time and retorted that he had hair like Fuzzy Bear. That was the day I had my mouth washed out with soap when I got home, literally.

And yes I agree it's a little off topic and Anglocentric for this thread, but these examples I think are relevant to stereotyping.


I'm sure we'll be told if we are straying too far away from the topic, in which case we can start a new thread that is more focused.
Dewi1066
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Nomad

Not overly sure what happened there, I typed a reply and it seems to have put my previous reply in place of it??

Weird. I'll redo my reply in a bit, have an evening meal to prepare.

Dewi1066
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Nomad

I think London is almost always a special case because of its massive size and diversity, but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't at least fairly on track with the rest of the UK.


I was in London last week. I'd like to say on business, but I used work as a loose excuse to visit a friend and catch up. It is another world compared to the rest of the UK. Especially the city. Completely different from any other city in the UK, attitudes, focus, very different.

I just meant racial abuse in general. I'm guessing the government must have some criteria for what is a racially motivated crime or not which it would have statistics for. I am too lazy to find out for myself though.


Racial crime is higher against non-ethnic communities than ethnic communities, by a large number as far as the statistics go. But then you have to compare that to the number of one community versus the other and it all swings the other way, massively the other way.

The problem with UK statistics is they are skewed by political meddling. Look at the exaggeration of the gay community when the previous government were in office. They did it for good reason, but they skewed the statistics to push forward an agenda.

What I think the video is very good at showing is raising awareness on the issue and turning racism from something that was probably casually accepted in many walks of life and institutions prior to 1991 to being deemed too politically incorrect to tolerate in any shape or form. In finally catching the killers, the police have somewhat redeemed their image in London, (something that's been long coming, trust me), and in addition it brings the issue of race back onto the table. The fact that people are reevaluating their views and thinking about race relations is so important, especially in an England more diverse than ever before.


At the same time though, you have to consider the wider view. In the majority of places in the UK with the majority of the population, they couldn't care less about your race, colour or creed. We as a nation are not only tolerant, we're accepting, at least until something poses a threat. Now I grant you, that threat could be perceived by one group as huge and by another as a nothing, but in the communities I've mixed there is no ill feeling towards anyone on the basis of colour. As I said, you're more likely to get a jibe about being ginger.

The huge differences between London and the rest of the UK are only really highlighted when someone who has lived in London all their lives moves out to somewhere else in the UK. These people tend to see racism and inequality everywhere, whereas what they're actually seeing is a working, functional community that doesn't require political correctness to exist. The BBC moving to Salford for instance has been hilarious. You'd think the London office had sentenced them to Siberia or something the way they make a drama out of it.

Oh indeed so. I myself am half Greek on my mother's side, but I think what people often cannot realise is how differently your experience of life in Britain is as a minority. For example, my mother remembers the police coming round to her house after they received some complaints about 'the ******s next door' from their so called neighbours and being called a coon when she went to university in Manchester. Of course this was in the 60s and 70s, and this kind of treatment seems inconceivable now. But I always wondered that if that's what you get for being Greek, it must have been hell for black or asian families back then.


Now this is where the stereotyping comes in. The stereotypes of Greeks or Greek second generation in the north are terrible, but that has a lot to do with the business community. I've dealt with every nationality, first and second generation through my work and I have to admit, the Greeks live up to their stereotypes everytime when it comes to business. Sometimes I've not even know they were Greek and the same thing has happened again, but it's all about learning and adapting. And you know what, I've been lazy in recent times more because I can't be bothered to go through the whole charade of it all, but I should. It's all part of business.

Anyway...

Probably the worst I have encountered in my time other than the odd football chant is stop and search laws in London. The school I went to was probably about 60% afro carribean, so naturally a lot of my school mates were black. Countless times when we were on nights out police would drive past eyeing up our group, then get out and stop and search only the black guys we were with. I found it deeply disturbing and it's why I have such an objection to racial profiling. It can seem all well and good to say it's fine to implement policy based on generalisations when you won't be affected by it, but when you've actually seen it first hand, that kind of victimisations seems deplorable.


Want to know something that will shock you? You know the stop and search thing up here? It targets those between the ages of 15 and 18. Regardless of colour or creed, you're a target. I know because I was a victim of it and I argued my corner which got me a breach of the peace for my trouble. All I had done wrong was walking down the wrong street at the wrong time.

The police go for the easy targets and unfortunately the ethnic communities in London, believe it or not, make themselves targets by their own beliefs. It's a self-perpetuating cycle of police arrests and attitudes for the most part, but that does have the effect of rubbing off on the police when that circle widens. Hence the reason a chap I know was stopped, searched and arrested, despite being on legitimate business and he had proof. I know he had proof, because the proof was the job I'd given him, but he rang me from the police station to explain the situation and to him the most important thing wasn't the arrest, but that he'd let me down on our first job together.

When politicians make decisions for the UK, they need to widen their field of view. The UK is a diverse and bizarre set of countries, and should be treated as such. The world doesn't revolve around London.
FireflyIV
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Nomad

In the majority of places in the UK with the majority of the population, they couldn't care less about your race, colour or creed. We as a nation are not only tolerant, we're accepting, at least until something poses a threat.


With all due respect I think if that were the case the various ethnic communities of Britain wouldn't feel so victimised. I agree that the vast majority are not overtly racist, but many people harbour certain racist atitudes which affects the way they interact with minorities, ultimately affecting the experience they have of British life in a way that's very difficult for those in the majority to perceive.

These people tend to see racism and inequality everywhere, whereas what they're actually seeing is a working, functional community that doesn't require political correctness to exist.


I disagree. I'm personally a rather big fan of political correctness. People complain endlessley about it, but they forget that before a notion existed in British society you would be hearing racist comedians on BBC1 at primetime, and would have to tolerate any number of casually racist jokes in your social life. Don't get me wrong, PC for PCs sake isn't good. But it came about for a reason.

And I don't particularly think Londoners see inequality everywhere in the North. If anything the perception of a social setting where all are equally poor. What's shocking in London is the disparity of wealth between the boroughs.

Want to know something that will shock you? You know the stop and search thing up here? It targets those between the ages of 15 and 18. Regardless of colour or creed, you're a target.


I believe the same policy is instituted nationally. Except in London it's the black teenagers who get targeted. 9 times more likely to be stopped and searched.

The world doesn't revolve around London.


I fail to see how this is particularly relevant to the race debate. If anything racism in London is more intense than in the North due to the diversity, so what happens in London should be considered very seriously.
Dewi1066
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Nomad

With all due respect I think if that were the case the various ethnic communities of Britain wouldn't feel so victimised. I agree that the vast majority are not overtly racist, but many people harbour certain racist atitudes which affects the way they interact with minorities, ultimately affecting the experience they have of British life in a way that's very difficult for those in the majority to perceive


But you're ignoring the obvious. Repeatedly I've mentioned ginger-haired people or the vertically challenged, everyone has a hard time of it for their difference really. It's just the way the UK operates, it isn't anything that hides something sinister, it is just the way we are as a nation. It is held up as being racism, but can you be racist against someone for having ginger hair, their height, their shape of nose, their choice of food or even their way of dressing?

I disagree. I'm personally a rather big fan of political correctness. People complain endlessley about it, but they forget that before a notion existed in British society you would be hearing racist comedians on BBC1 at primetime, and would have to tolerate any number of casually racist jokes in your social life. Don't get me wrong, PC for PCs sake isn't good. But it came about for a reason.

And I don't particularly think Londoners see inequality everywhere in the North. If anything the perception of a social setting where all are equally poor. What's shocking in London is the disparity of wealth between the boroughs.


If you want to see casual racism, watch the series Not Going Out. Watch how the northerners are victimised by casual racism (in PC terms) and observe the fuss northern folk made of it.

That is right. None.

Seriously, watch it and think of the conversation you've had with me today. You can see full episodes on YouTube and tell me you don't laugh when the northern 'casual racism' comes into play. I don't care, I'm not fussed by it. But think about it and equate it to the PC that is broadcasted daily.

I believe the same policy is instituted nationally. Except in London it's the black teenagers who get targeted. 9 times more likely to be stopped and searched.


Are you sure? I mean forget the media, forget what we're told by politicians and think about it logically. Are you any more hassled in the south for being black than you are in the north for being a certain age?

If real (by real, I mean not for government statistics purposes) research was undertaken, I think you might be shocked. I've worked in youth clubs all over the place as an artist, and I have to tell you, the attitudes to the police remain the same throughout the UK, just for different reasons.

I fail to see how this is particularly relevant to the race debate. If anything racism in London is more intense than in the North due to the diversity, so what happens in London should be considered very seriously.


Nope, irrelevant. As you admitted, London is more diverse. So if racial tensions appear more prominent in London, it is to be expected due to more diversity. You said it yourself.

Watch BBC one for the weather and watch with a real open mind. Where does the weather (and I mean we're talking the weather, not racism or jobs or houses) focus on really? Where does the BBC focus on? Our national news channel, where is the primary focus?

Now come back and tell me, as far as the media and the politicians are concerned, where do they think the world revolves around?
FireflyIV
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Nomad

But you're ignoring the obvious. Repeatedly I've mentioned ginger-haired people or the vertically challenged, everyone has a hard time of it for their difference really.

It is held up as being racism, but can you be racist against someone for having ginger hair, their height, their shape of nose, their choice of food or even their way of dressing?


The key difference is historical context and the actual affect racism has in various walks of life than simple teasing and piss taking does not. The Met police can be argued to be institutionally racist due to the various cases of incompetence when investigating the murders of minorities. I have never heard of a case where such incompetence is caused by anti ginger or anti midget sentiment.

In addition piss taking often only occurs inside social groups. You take the piss out of your ginger mate and he takes the piss out of you, because you're mates and that's what mates do. Analogously, among my mates we take the piss out of our respective racial stereotypes to an extent. But it's because we're mates that we can do it.

However simply being of a different colour or background means that people in all sections of society differ their behaviour towards you to a certain degree, in a vaiety of settings. This is where racism is different. It's far more pervasive than simple piss taking.

But think about it and equate it to the PC that is broadcasted daily.


I don't have the time at the moment, nor will I for the near future, but I will keep it in mind.

Are you any more hassled in the south for being black than you are in the north for being a certain age?


If you can find a statistic showing that youths are 9 times more likely to be stoppped and searched in the North then I may have cause to believe you. In any case, the black statistic applies nationally and not just to London and the South, so there clearly is a great disparity.

I've worked in youth clubs all over the place as an artist, and I have to tell you, the attitudes to the police remain the same throughout the UK, just for different reasons.


I've no doubt people dislike the police universally. Nevertheless, I think it can be said with some certainty that when you feel racially discriminated, as opposed to feeling so due to your age, the antipathy towards them is all the more intense.

Now come back and tell me, as far as the media and the politicians are concerned, where do they think the world revolves around?


London. Because it does. It's where the economic and political power in the UK lie. I's only natural this is reflected in media and national policy. It wouldn't be appropriate if national institutions weren't to some degree London centric. My point was however that regardless of where in the UK it occurs, racism is racism, and racial stereotyping should be taken as a national issue, not perceived as one born out of London based political correctness.

In any case, I won't be able to come on for a week or so, so if this goes dead by then, it's been a nice chat.
fracell
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fracell
67 posts
Nomad

okay black people in america are racist we have no bet for white people or latino music awards and many many many other things like that because if we did then we would be racist but not them rediculous

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