US soldiers out of control? - Armor Games Community

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Dewi1066

539 posts

Nomad

Posted January 13, '12 10:37pm UTC

What other message do you send, can you send, with what you said? What was you actually trying to say then?

You've misread my original posts because you don't understand what I was talking about, you feign disgust at my original posts without understanding them and now you want me to waste my time re-explaining it all for your benefit?

An educated guess.

An ill-educated guess because you're an arrogant know-it-all who refuses to admit you were wrong about my intent.

I haven't the time or inclination to argue the toss with an internet-warrior who has no experience of what he's talking about and constantly wants a Google link to illustrate a point.

You're asking me to elaborate on points, why? You have no intention on trying to understand what I'm saying, you just want more comments you can try to pick to pieces rather than admit you haven't a clue what happens to people in combat zones. This isn't a debate or discussion to you, it's about your petty belief that you're view is the only one that matters. Your closest experience to a war is on your games console or what you can read on Google, and you presume you're speaking to someone of the same experience. I was wearing a military uniform 6 years before you were born. Relevance? Unlike you, I'm commenting on something from experience and knowing the situation.

So long and short of it, you read what you want into my comments on this subject and pretend to be disgusted. Don't bother to ask questions or show any sort of courtesy, just make an assumption and run with it. Presumably you think this makes you look clever.

It doesn't.

[quote]What other message do you send, can you send, with what you said? What was you actually trying to say then?\r\n[/quote]\r\n\r\nYou've misread my original posts because you don't understand what I was talking about, you feign disgust at my original posts without understanding them and now you want me to waste my time re-explaining it all for your benefit?\r\n\r\n[quote]An educated guess.[/quote]\r\n\r\nAn ill-educated guess because you're an arrogant know-it-all who refuses to admit you were wrong about my intent.\r\n\r\nI haven't the time or inclination to argue the toss with an internet-warrior who has no experience of what he's talking about and constantly wants a Google link to illustrate a point.\r\n\r\nYou're asking me to elaborate on points, why? You have no intention on trying to understand what I'm saying, you just want more comments you can try to pick to pieces rather than admit you haven't a clue what happens to people in combat zones. This isn't a debate or discussion to you, it's about your petty belief that you're view is the only one that matters. Your closest experience to a war is on your games console or what you can read on Google, and you presume you're speaking to someone of the same experience. I was wearing a military uniform 6 years before you were born. Relevance? Unlike you, I'm commenting on something from experience and knowing the situation.\r\n\r\nSo long and short of it, you read what you want into my comments on this subject and pretend to be disgusted. Don't bother to ask questions or show any sort of courtesy, just make an assumption and run with it. Presumably you think this makes you look clever. \r\n\r\nIt doesn't.

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LucasDaLegend

1,066 posts

Nomad

Posted January 13, '12 10:38pm UTC

There really isn't much to follow up from that considering that you admitted that you knew little about what was actually happening out there.

just how little I actually know

I think that assuming that i knew very little about what is happening is a false accusation. Just because i am perhaps a lot younger than most people on this site, definately doesn't mean i know just as much as a 4 year old. I know what my future occupation will be - British Army.

I know this because for the army, you need straight GCSE D's. Already, in year 8 i have achieved this in some of my topics. I have looked at many things about the army including: TV programms, DVD's, Books, websites and i have been to an official camp.

I agree that, from the perspective that you we may have over here, what they did at that particular moment was wrong but the way people thought of it as a 'U.S Army hatred' was just as bad.

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Dewi1066

539 posts

Nomad

Posted January 13, '12 10:49pm UTC

"Do unto others as you would have other do unto you."

That is pretty much the whole point though, that is exactly what happens day in and day out. This incident was captured on film, but there are literally millions of incidents that are not caught on film.

Imagine a scenario. A sniper sees a Taliban soldier raise his head above a rock. He takes aim and the next time the Taliban soldier raises his head above, the sniper removes it with a single shot.

The sniper waits and when the opportunity arises, he goes to confirm the kill. No emotion about what he's just done, just acknowledgement that he's completed a part of his job by removing someone's head. No thoughts about that persons family or what that person did before he entered the battlefield.

Doesn't sound particularly pleasant, but that happens every day. It is part of war and pretty much part of every war there ever has been (albeit pre-sniper rifle in a slightly different format). It's inhuman killing on the command of a superior but we accept it as we're told it is for the greater good.

Now lets say that sniper decides to then remove the hand of the dead Taliban soldier with a knife.

He's now gone too far in the minds of millions, but seconds earlier he removed the man's head with the bullet from his sniper rifle.

Not saying for a moment that any of this relates to someone urinating on a dead body, but we're all hypocrites when it comes to war. We openly accept a war taking place, but the detail is far too much for the majority. We expect our soldiers to cope with the horrors of war, then once their job is done, come back to society and get along with life as if nothing has happened.

And we're supposedly civilised.

[quote]"Do unto others as you would have other do unto you."[/quote]\r\n\r\nThat is pretty much the whole point though, that is exactly what happens day in and day out. This incident was captured on film, but there are literally millions of incidents that are not caught on film.\r\n\r\nImagine a scenario. A sniper sees a Taliban soldier raise his head above a rock. He takes aim and the next time the Taliban soldier raises his head above, the sniper removes it with a single shot.\r\n\r\nThe sniper waits and when the opportunity arises, he goes to confirm the kill. No emotion about what he's just done, just acknowledgement that he's completed a part of his job by removing someone's head. No thoughts about that persons family or what that person did before he entered the battlefield.\r\n\r\nDoesn't sound particularly pleasant, but that happens every day. It is part of war and pretty much part of every war there ever has been (albeit pre-sniper rifle in a slightly different format). It's inhuman killing on the command of a superior but we accept it as we're told it is for the greater good.\r\n\r\nNow lets say that sniper decides to then remove the hand of the dead Taliban soldier with a knife.\r\n\r\nHe's now gone too far in the minds of millions, but seconds earlier he removed the man's head with the bullet from his sniper rifle.\r\n\r\nNot saying for a moment that any of this relates to someone urinating on a dead body, but we're all hypocrites when it comes to war. We openly accept a war taking place, but the detail is far too much for the majority. We expect our soldiers to cope with the horrors of war, then once their job is done, come back to society and get along with life as if nothing has happened.\r\n\r\nAnd we're supposedly civilised.

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DSM

1,303 posts

Nomad

Posted January 13, '12 10:56pm UTC

1) Destroying the Twin Towers wasn't such a good idea in the first place.

talibans werent the one who destroyed the twin towers

2) Imagine the conditions that they were living in. Away from home for all that time but you were also being permantley attacked. Every night you go to sleep with the same fright. Those men out there protecting you whilst you sleep are the same men that fight with you. The army learn to work as a force and in groups, rather than individually.

the same thing can be said about the talibans.
I am not saying the americans soldiers shouldnt defends themselves. But doing what they did in this situation is just inhuman.
1. Killing them -fine it a war-
2. Doing what they did to the corpse -its inhuman in every way-

I would understand this 'Big Deal' if it was occuring on the streets or in your home country

It a country as any other. Why isnt it a big deal?

Bringing up a major clan which is hated by the public but adored by the racist - Ku Klux Klan. Both taliban and KKK are mass murderes.

and thats why they are at war with them, but no need to do inhuman things to the corpse.

it is human nature.

this is not in human nature. It barbaric and inhuman. There is no excuses that can justified that.

risked their lives in a combat zone.

So did all other 130000 soldiers in Afghanistan, but I dont see them act like these soldiers.
Many soldiers have been in the same place, in the same conditions, but none of them done what these soldiers did.

Just because somebody is a soldier, doesnt mean they get access to do what ever they feel like.

A soldier represent a country, so it should be a common sense to not do what they these soldiers did.

[quote]1) Destroying the Twin Towers wasn't such a good idea in the first place.[/quote]\r\n\r\ntalibans werent the one who destroyed the twin towers\r\n\r\n\r\n[quote]2) Imagine the conditions that they were living in. Away from home for all that time but you were also being permantley attacked. Every night you go to sleep with the same fright. Those men out there protecting you whilst you sleep are the same men that fight with you. The army learn to work as a force and in groups, rather than individually. [/quote]\r\n\r\nthe same thing can be said about the talibans. \r\nI am not saying the americans soldiers shouldnt defends themselves. But doing what they did in this situation is just inhuman. \r\n1. Killing them -fine it a war- \r\n2. Doing what they did to the corpse -its inhuman in every way-\r\n\r\n[quote]I would understand this 'Big Deal' if it was occuring on the streets or in your home country[/quote]\r\n\r\nIt a country as any other. Why isnt it a big deal?\r\n\r\n[quote]Bringing up a major clan which is hated by the public but adored by the racist - Ku Klux Klan. Both taliban and KKK are mass murderes.[/quote]\r\n\r\nand thats why they are at war with them, but no need to do inhuman things to the corpse. \r\n\r\n[quote] it is human nature.[/quote]\r\n\r\nthis is not in human nature. It barbaric and inhuman. There is no excuses that can justified that. \r\n\r\n[quote]risked their lives in a combat zone.[/quote]\r\n\r\nSo did all other 130000 soldiers in Afghanistan, but I dont see them act like these soldiers. \r\nMany soldiers have been in the same place, in the same conditions, but none of them done what these soldiers did. \r\n\r\nJust because somebody is a soldier, doesnt mean they get access to do what ever they feel like.\r\n\r\nA soldier represent a country, so it should be a common sense to not do what they these soldiers did.

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Dewi1066

539 posts

Nomad

Posted January 13, '12 10:57pm UTC

I know what my future occupation will be - British Army.

With the greatest respect, and I'm not presuming you haven't researched it, you might want to reconsider it before you come of age. There are far better things you can aim for than being cannon fodder. You don't get any real thanks for putting yourself in harms way for the causes of politicians and unfortunately the majority of modern conflicts are just that. Politicians rarely know what sending troops in really means, they just sit back and make decisions from relative safety.

If you are intent on joining though, could I recommend you aim for better exam results and join up to something that really does make a difference such as Signals or Intelligence?

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DSM

1,303 posts

Nomad

Posted January 13, '12 11:00pm UTC

Now lets say that sniper decides to then remove the hand of the dead Taliban soldier with a knife

He's now gone too far in the minds of millions, but seconds earlier he removed the man's head with the bullet from his sniper rifle.

in this scenario. he shot the taliban to kill him. Then the question is, why go and start remove the hand of a dead man?

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Dewi1066

539 posts

Nomad

Posted January 13, '12 11:19pm UTC

in this scenario. he shot the taliban to kill him. Then the question is, why go and start remove the hand of a dead man?

You didn't question the removal of the man's head though?

Why not attempt to wound him to incapacitate him? Why is it automatically acceptable that the sniper removed the man's head, obviously killing him?

The sniper is trained to remove threats, not necessarily to kill, simply to remove threats. As I said, we're all hypocrites when it comes to war.

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Highfire

3,025 posts

Nomad

Posted January 13, '12 11:21pm UTC

You've misread my original posts because you don't understand what I was talking about, you feign disgust at my original posts without understanding them and now you want me to waste my time re-explaining it all for your benefit?

It wouldn't be a waste of your time. It could end up benefiting you.
I'm done asking questions about this, you apparently don't seem concerned with waging intelligent discussion between my point and your own.

An ill-educated guess because you're an arrogant know-it-all who refuses to admit you were wrong about my intent.

I don't know what your intent was / is, and what you said in how it backed it up.
What I derived was reasonable, and definitely educated. Now, do you want me to "waste my time" going through each piece of what you said and how it meant to me, and why?
It's a shame I'm willing to go through all this typing and effort to prove the mere point that I'm not as bad as you say. Your assumptions, bluntness and insults is a pathetic level of debating you've stumbled on.

And I guess now I could explain to you what debating is.
I guess it'd be easier if I were able to have someone else do that, because getting somewhere with you from my position seems impossible at this time.

you just want more comments you can try to pick to pieces rather than admit you haven't a clue what happens to people in combat zones.

Guess I'll just go call troll at this point.
One sec, getting a mod ^^

As for that, I'll refer to DSM's comments before I get one.

I think that assuming that i knew very little about what is happening is a false accusation. Just because i am perhaps a lot younger than most people on this site

Age I also don't think comes into account all that much (being as experience is not a sole factor in a lot of debates).
How old are you right now, by the way?
14 here.

what they did at that particular moment was wrong but the way people thought of it as a 'U.S Army hatred' was just as bad.

I agree, generalization is one of the worst things about events and factions, however that is not a current subject. *_*
Then again you had nothing more to say you said... nevermind.

Then the question is, why go and start remove the hand of a dead man?

Precisely a point. He would, by shooting his head, be terminating a threat, it's mechanical, it's cold and it's not a nice thing to think about -- but it's a fact of the matter and something made to avoid another larger evil (self-defense and killing those who would do the same, is not necessarily an evil) is a fair thing to do (if shooting the Taliban was not an evil, which I don't think it is).

Pushing the boundaries of what is essentially your job could account for civilian crime.
Would dismembering a human hand go unpunished in society?

- H

[quote]You've misread my original posts because you don't understand what I was talking about, you feign disgust at my original posts without understanding them and now you want me to waste my time re-explaining it all for your benefit?[/quote]\r\nIt wouldn't be a waste of your time. It could end up benefiting you.\r\nI'm done asking questions about this, you apparently don't seem concerned with waging intelligent discussion between my point and your own.\r\n\r\n[quote]An ill-educated guess because you're an arrogant know-it-all who refuses to admit you were wrong about my intent.[/quote]\r\nI don't know what your intent was / is, and what you said in how it backed it up.\r\nWhat I derived was reasonable, and definitely educated. Now, do you want me to "waste my time" going through each piece of what you said and how it meant to me, and why?\r\nIt's a shame I'm willing to go through all this typing and effort to prove the mere point that I'm not as bad as you say. Your assumptions, bluntness and insults is a pathetic level of debating you've stumbled on.\r\n\r\nAnd I guess now I could explain to you what debating is.\r\nI guess it'd be easier if I were able to have someone else do that, because getting somewhere with you from my position seems impossible at this time.\r\n\r\n[quote]you just want more comments you can try to pick to pieces rather than admit you haven't a clue what happens to people in combat zones.[/quote]\r\nGuess I'll just go call troll at this point.\r\nOne sec, getting a mod ^^\r\n\r\nAs for that, I'll refer to DSM's comments before I get one.\r\n\r\n[quote]I think that assuming that i knew very little about what is happening is a false accusation. Just because i am perhaps a lot younger than most people on this site[/quote]\r\nAge I also don't think comes into account all that much (being as experience is not a sole factor in a lot of debates).\r\nHow old are you right now, by the way?\r\n14 here.\r\n\r\n[quote]what they did at that particular moment was wrong but the way people thought of it as a 'U.S Army hatred' was just as bad.[/quote]\r\nI agree, generalization is one of the worst things about events and factions, however that is not a current subject. *_*\r\nThen again you had nothing more to say you said... nevermind.\r\n\r\n[quote]Then the question is, why go and start remove the hand of a dead man?[/quote]\r\nPrecisely a point. He would, by shooting his head, be terminating a threat, it's mechanical, it's cold and it's not a nice thing to think about -- but it's a fact of the matter and something made to avoid another larger evil (self-defense and killing those who would do the same, is not necessarily an evil) is a fair thing to do (if shooting the Taliban was not an evil, which I don't think it is). \r\n\r\nPushing the boundaries of what is essentially your job could account for civilian crime.\r\nWould dismembering a human hand go unpunished in society?\r\n\r\n - H

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Dewi1066

539 posts

Nomad

Posted January 13, '12 11:22pm UTC

talibans werent the one who destroyed the twin towers

It is argued that Afghanistan is where the terrorists who took down the World Trade Centre were trained.

Whether that is true or not relies on whether or not you trust the information given to us by our politicians.

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Dewi1066

539 posts

Nomad

Posted January 13, '12 11:34pm UTC

It wouldn't be a waste of your time.

I'm afraid it would be as your comment to someone else shows:

Do not try and cross to me just how little I know. Because I don't think you know either, and even if you did, I care not for how much you care to elaborate on it, because I STILL will not understand.

You have no intention of 'debating' this or having an intelligent conversation.

And I guess now I could explain to you what debating is.

Which goes to prove my point about your arrogance. Entering into a debate relies on both parties agreeing to take on board the others points of view which you have stated you're not willing to do. So there is no debate.

How old are you right now, by the way?

Did you bother to read what I wrote in my last post to you before you replied? If you did read it, you wouldn't be asking that question.

Then again you had nothing more to say you said... nevermind.

To clarify, I am no longer debating the issue with you as you have no intention of debating, no intention of trying to understand someone else's point of view and I suspect that even if I sat up all night discussing this with you, you'd still be claiming you knew better.

[quote]It wouldn't be a waste of your time.\r\n[/quote]\r\n\r\nI'm afraid it would be as your comment to someone else shows:\r\n\r\n[quote]Do not try and cross to me just how little I know. Because I don't think you know either, and even if you did, I care not for how much you care to elaborate on it, because I STILL will not understand.[/quote]\r\n\r\nYou have no intention of 'debating' this or having an intelligent conversation.\r\n\r\n[quote]And I guess now I could explain to you what debating is.[/quote]\r\n\r\nWhich goes to prove my point about your arrogance. Entering into a debate relies on both parties agreeing to take on board the others points of view which you have stated you're not willing to do. So there is no debate.\r\n\r\n[quote]How old are you right now, by the way?[/quote]\r\n\r\nDid you bother to read what I wrote in my last post to you before you replied? If you did read it, you wouldn't be asking that question.\r\n\r\n[quote]Then again you had nothing more to say you said... nevermind.[/quote]\r\n\r\nTo clarify, I am no longer debating the issue with you as you have no intention of debating, no intention of trying to understand someone else's point of view and I suspect that even if I sat up all night discussing this with you, you'd still be claiming you knew better.

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DSM

1,303 posts

Nomad

Posted January 13, '12 11:37pm UTC

Why not attempt to wound him to incapacitate him? Why is it automatically acceptable that the sniper removed the man's head, obviously killing him?[/quote]

He shot the head to kill somebody who was a thread to him, but after that he is dead. There is no reason to start removing his hand. I would call that a act of insanity.

And in this situation these soldiers did something that I would consider worse then cutting a hand.
It disrespectful in a whole another level.

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devsaupa

1,810 posts

Nomad

Posted January 13, '12 11:40pm UTC

Yes it was a mistake for them to even take this video. But the only reason people are getting up in arms about this is that there was a video. No one has any idea what else goes on over there that isn't released. And I like how the Taliban is calling America "barbaric". There are a lot worse thing they could have done. Not saying it was right, but put yourselves in their shoes with getting out of combat and still having your adrenaline pumping and knowing you could die at any minute. Your not going to think super clearly.

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Dewi1066

539 posts

Nomad

Posted January 13, '12 11:47pm UTC

He shot the head to kill somebody who was a thread to him, but after that he is dead. There is no reason to start removing his hand. I would call that a act of insanity.

At what point did the Taliban soldier pose a threat?

He simply raised his head above a rock and the sniper removed it.

I'd call that an act of insanity.

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DSM

1,303 posts

Nomad

Posted January 13, '12 11:51pm UTC

in their shoes with getting out of combat and still having your adrenaline pumping and knowing you could die at any minute. Your not going to think super clearly.

Anybody in Afghanistan is in the same situation, and even worser situation. civilians, ANA soldiers, soldiers from Europa, other US soldiers and even talibans.
Anybody, and I actually mean anybody who lives there, is in the same situation. But it doesnt justified a barbaric act, no matter who does it. In this case, these soldiers.

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Dewi1066

539 posts

Nomad

Posted January 13, '12 11:52pm UTC

Yes it was a mistake for them to even take this video. But the only reason people are getting up in arms about this is that there was a video.

There is also nothing to say that the same team haven't done far worse, but chosen not to film it, just as the Taliban soldiers could have done far worse, just not filmed it either.

My point is it has been documented in war after war from both sides of the conflict. It doesn't make it right or acceptable, but it is just one of the many unsavoury things that happen during war.

With the exception of illegal invasion, it begs the question why we're still going to war?

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