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DSM
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DSM
1,303 posts
Nomad

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/01/13/us/video-marines-urinating/index.html?hpt=ias_c1

I want to hear your opinions about this. So far in the original video, there is only supportive people about this. After my opinion this is inhuman.

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DSM
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DSM
1,303 posts
Nomad

At what point did the Taliban soldier pose a threat?

He simply raised his head above a rock and the sniper removed it.


The question is, are you talking about a taliban or a afghan civilian/farmer?

if it is a taliban, then it logical that they are at war, and are a threat to each other.

but if it is a farmer/civilian then it is a act of insanity to shot a innocent person.
Dewi1066
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Dewi1066
539 posts
Nomad

The question is, are you talking about a taliban or a afghan civilian/farmer?


I was referring to a Taliban soldier, but I dispute the logic that automatically because they are at war that the Taliban soldier is a threat.

Even if you automatically assume the Taliban soldier is a threat, is removing his head a reasonable action? Should the sniper have attempted to incapacitate the Taliban soldier first or is it fully justifiable to simply kill the Taliban soldier in that manner because he's the enemy?

The aftermath is that the Taliban soldier will presumably be returned to his family minus his head rather than a possible alternative of the Taliban soldier returning home after the war is over after spending the time inbetween being incarcerated by the Americans or the Afghanistan authorities that are now in place across various provinces.
EnterOrion
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EnterOrion
4,220 posts
Nomad

I can't say I disagree with the Marines, here. People need to stop getting into ****fits over the humanity or inhumanity of war, and whatever we do to the corpses. It's a dead guy, he tried to kill you. You killed him. The group he affiliates himself with, and is willing to die for, has killed your comrades. Quite frankly, the pissing was a well deserved humiliation.

People aren't civilized. As much as we pretend to be, most of us will never even see combat. We'll never get to see our comrades, our brothers, blown to pieces or mushed into tiny pieces by high caliber bullets. Nobody has the right to judge them, no matter how much it might offend your useless western, nonviolent sentimentality.

Seriously, get over it.

Should the sniper have attempted to incapacitate the Taliban soldier first or is it fully justifiable to simply kill the Taliban soldier in that manner because he's the enemy?


I vote kill. Blowing his head off before he blows yours off is generally the best way to solve these problems, especially since most of the time they don't much care to be alive in the first place.
NoNameC68
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NoNameC68
5,043 posts
Shepherd

I'm not going to argue whether morality goes out the window or not during war. The article read:

The deputy commander of U.S. forces in Afghanistan ordered troops Friday to treat the corpses of slain INSURGENTS and CIVILIANS with "appropriate dignity and respect."


When a soldier is fighting in a war, he becomes an animal. Anyone ever watch Full Metal Jacket? The scene where the soldiers dressed up a dead Vietnamese soldier and treated him like a guest wasn't made up just for the movie. That kind of stuff actually happened. It's normal for soldiers to gain a hate towards men and women whom are their enemies, and it's often normal for them to hate the foreigners they are sworn to protect.

When it comes to war, civilians are going to die. The measures that the soldiers take to prevent the death of civilians is debatable. Regardless, I believe everyone should come to the conclusion that shooting the living people with a bullet is a far more serious matter than urinating on their bodies!

*If you can accept that the soldiers were in the right to kill the insurgents and civilians, then there's no reason you should grow upset when they urinate on the corpses!

*If you believe the soldiers should NOT have killed the insurgents and/or the civilians, then the front line issue should be that they shouldn't have killed the insurgents and/or civilians! Granted, the urination could still be used as an argument to vilify the soldiers, but it shouldn't be as big a deal as the murders!

I believe that the focus on this act misses the bigger picture.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

If you can accept that the soldiers were in the right to kill the insurgents and civilians, then there's no reason you should grow upset when they urinate on the corpses!


Given the quote you pointed out this would go against orders.
NoNameC68
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NoNameC68
5,043 posts
Shepherd

Given the quote you pointed out this would go against orders.


I don't think anyone is upset with the fact they disobeyed orders. Obviously the soldiers should be punished for what they did, but only because they disobeyed orders and broke military protocol. To treat their actions like a war crime is just ridiculous.
Dewi1066
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Dewi1066
539 posts
Nomad

Quite frankly, the pissing was a well deserved humiliation.


Blimey... quite a statement. I don't agree with you, but I won't disagree with people not being civilised. We're not civilised, we claim to be above barbaric acts of violence or dishonouring the dead whilst conveniently ignoring the reality of war. What did people really think was going on over there?

I vote kill. Blowing his head off before he blows yours off is generally the best way to solve these problems, especially since most of the time they don't much care to be alive in the first place.


They don't care much for being alive? Is that why they fought off the British, the Russians and now a combination of American, British and other smaller units from various countries? They want to live in their own society by their own rules, which is entirely up to them.

Are you mistaking the Taliban soldiers for suicide bombers?

Our armed forces are there because they had training camps for terrorists, but the mission has morphed into some sort of bizarre campaign to alter their countries regime. It's political meddling and unfortunately the soldiers are at the blunt end of it and risking their lives for some sort of Western political ideal that will never work. It didn't work in Vietnam, it didn't work in Iraq and it won't work in Afghanistan.
Dewi1066
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Dewi1066
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Nomad

To treat their actions like a war crime is just ridiculous.


So where does the line get drawn between what is acceptable conduct and what is a war crime? If urinating on the corpse is okay, would removing a body part to be kept as a souvenir be okay? If the corpse happens to be female, is a spot of necrophilia okay?

What they did goes against the Geneva Convention, so it is in fact a war crime.

We're naive enough to think that war is fought by these rules, but the only time these rules matter is when something like this video comes to light. The rules are ignored in the combat zone, whether the liberals who insist on war having rules sit ignorantly thousands of miles away from the dangers of war.

As I've repeated throughout this discussion, the only reason this has come to light is that they filmed it. Without the film, nobody would have ever known that this type of thing was going on.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

As I've repeated throughout this discussion, the only reason this has come to light is that they filmed it. Without the film, nobody would have ever known that this type of thing was going on.


Well, perhaps that might poke the Singaporean government into letting us carry our phones into army camps. Bummer.
thepunisher93
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thepunisher93
1,826 posts
Nomad

you have the audacity to claim that AMERICAN SOLDIERS are the evil ones, and then not take heed of all of the terrible things the taliban has done? how...hypocritical of you. you know nothing, except for the "I hate america" drivle that is shoved down your throat by your uninformed circle of friends and family. our soldiers are treated terribly over there, and you're saying that the taliban can justify their inhumane dealings of our men? how dare you.

-Blade

Tell me what inhuman dealing did with your soldiers?
They fight with honor and treat their POWs rightly.
They don't have guantanamo bay or abughuraib jail.
They never stuffed people n metalic containers and neither did they did that dead man's dance thing.
Highfire
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Highfire
3,025 posts
Nomad

You killed him. The group he affiliates himself with, and is willing to die for, has killed your comrades. Quite frankly, the pissing was a well deserved humiliation.

And if it was vice versa? Our soldiers kill their comrades, and if they were to die, would being pissed on be a well-deserved humiliation?
I don't understand how you could be so callous, honestly.

People aren't civilized.

At this point I'll just skip the rest of what you said, being as it follows this statement which I've already payed reference with an inability to control yourself being protected by a judgement on humanity.

Regardless, I believe everyone should come to the conclusion that shooting the living people with a bullet is a far more serious matter than urinating on their bodies!

There are different situations that make shooting live people with bullets acceptable. Self-defense, or in a state of war like this, definitely.

I wouldn't condone that kind of violence against civilians, though.

*If you can accept that the soldiers were in the right to kill the insurgents and civilians, then there's no reason you should grow upset when they urinate on the corpses!

Not the civilians, but the insurgents -- their enemy who they had to deal with (and done so in a justified safe method).

Given the quote you pointed out this would go against orders.

A problem with judgement from the backlines then?
Or was it "acceptable losses", the civilians?

*If you believe the soldiers should NOT have killed the insurgents and/or the civilians, then the front line issue should be that they shouldn't have killed the insurgents and/or civilians!

I would mostly point towards not killing the civilians, but I don't know the situation in nearly enough detail to make a decision.

Granted, the urination could still be used as an argument to vilify the soldiers, but it shouldn't be as big a deal as the murders!

Hypothetically in the sense of killing ONLY the enemy, not a neutral party, in a justified situation (self-defense), would the urination be a primary point of discussion then?

We're naive enough to think that war is fought by these rules

I'd appreciate if you spoke for yourself, and wouldn't keep saying "we".
I've never thought about the subject of what the soldiers actually do on this level. Why? Because, why would I want to? I'm not turning a blind eye to this actually happening but I'm not going to actively make myself aware on the terrors of war.

- H
Dewi1066
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Dewi1066
539 posts
Nomad

They fight with honor and treat their POWs rightly.


You're not aware of the torture chamber the Taliban use then?

They don't have guantanamo bay or abughuraib jail.


Are you absolutely sure about that?

Now is about the time you role out the Bowe Bergdahl tape which is filmed and edited as war-time propaganda. Make sure that you claim this is how all POWs are treated by the Taliban, and that under no circumstances do Taliban soldiers shoot American soldiers dead whilst they're trying to surrender.

They never stuffed people n metalic containers and neither did they did that dead man's dance thing.


You're naivety astounds me!
thepunisher93
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thepunisher93
1,826 posts
Nomad




They fight with honor and treat their POWs rightly.

You're not aware of the torture chamber the Taliban use then?

They don't have guantanamo bay or abughuraib jail.

Are you absolutely sure about that?

Now is about the time you role out the Bowe Bergdahl tape which is filmed and edited as war-time propaganda. Make sure that you claim this is how all POWs are treated by the Taliban, and that under no circumstances do Taliban soldiers shoot American soldiers dead whilst they're trying to surrender.

They never stuffed people n metalic containers and neither did they did that dead man's dance thing.

You're naivety astounds me!

Do u have proof other wise?
if not than shutup.
Cuz proof only comes when **** happens.
partydevil
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partydevil
5,129 posts
Jester

The deputy commander of U.S. forces in Afghanistan ordered troops Friday to treat the corpses of slain INSURGENTS and CIVILIANS with "appropriate dignity and respect."

If you can accept that the soldiers were in the right to kill the insurgents and civilians, then there's no reason you should grow upset when they urinate on the corpses!
[quote]Given the quote you pointed out this would go against orders.
[/quote]

they could defend themself by saying that this is what they thought was "appropriate dignity and respect."

it doesn't say they had to be good to the dead bodys.
i guess they can get out of it this way.
thepunisher93
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thepunisher93
1,826 posts
Nomad

BTW
They are declaring those soldiers insane.

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