ForumsWEPRDutch governent bans burqa

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thepunisher93
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thepunisher93
1,826 posts
Nomad

This article states that dutch government banned face veil.
I think this really sucks and is hypocritical.
What are ur thoughts?

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nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

I consider the way some countries engage in multiculturalism and to integrate immigrants into their society as back-firing and shooting themselves in the foot. If they claim to stand as paragons of freedom and liberty, then why prevent people from wearing what they want to? I personally know Muslim women who don't view it as a submission, but as a proud aspect of their own culture.

So now, Muslim citizens of Holland have to give up parts of their culture and become ''Dutch''? Doesn't sound entirely fair to me. Same goes for the minaret ban in Switzerland. Disgraceful.

partydevil
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partydevil
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Jester

So now, Muslim citizens of Holland have to give up parts of their culture and become ''Dutch''?


they are in the netherlands now. so they have to ajust to our culture.
what we see happen here in the netherlands is that the muslims do not get around whit the dutch folk. because they stick to much pure to their own culture instead of mixing in the dutch culture.
so what happens then is that these 2 party's never realy mix.

sure it's fine you keep your culture. but you also have to ajust to the dutch culture if you want to live here.
if you don't then the netherlands is not a place for you to live and you should leave the country searching for a country where you can stay whit only our own culture.


however this law is based on a earlyer law (about 70 year old (after ww2)) that states that you are not allowed to cover your face when going in public.
this new law is only against burqa's. wich we in the netherlands only have about 10 people of the 16,5 million
it is not a law against kerchief wich is normaly used in the muslim culture.

the burqa is outlawed because we don't allowe a covered face in public.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

they are in the netherlands now. so they have to ajust to our culture.


Why should they? I don't see an inch of reasoning why they have to entirely adopt a new culture.

what we see happen here in the netherlands is that the muslims do not get around whit the dutch folk. because they stick to much pure to their own culture instead of mixing in the dutch culture.
so what happens then is that these 2 party's never realy mix.


I don't see how a bit of adjusting is bad; but saying its a legal offense to practice part of one's culture is unjustified. So why should you have the right to take away part of one's roots and heritage?
AgathaB
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AgathaB
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Nomad

what we see happen here in the netherlands is that the muslims do not get around whit the dutch folk. because they stick to much pure to their own culture instead of mixing in the dutch culture.


It's their culture, they have as much right to practice it as anyone else. So long as it doesn't harm anyone, why should they change? In particular, I believe that Western countries aren't nearly as accommodating of other cultures as they like to think (and preach). Yes, adjusting to other cultures is a good idea, but only if it goes both ways.
partydevil
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partydevil
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Jester

Why should they? I don't see an inch of reasoning why they have to entirely adopt a new culture.


we never say entirely. sure you can keep your own culture. but you should adept to what is normal in the netherlands and get mixed in the dutch culture.
if you don't then you are unable to make connections.

for example do we have a big problem whit muslims that never have and never will learn to speak dutch. even tho they live for 15+ years in the netherlands already.

I don't see how a bit of adjusting is bad; but saying its a legal offense to practice part of one's culture is unjustified. So why should you have the right to take away part of one's roots and heritage?


usualy it's the man of those woman that forces them to wear it.
it's not so much a practice for being a muslim.
there are loads of muslims out there that do not wear burqa's but are still just as much muslim as others.

and again the burqa actualy has always been outlawed because covering your face is outlawed even long befor the 1st burqa came to the netherlands.
but because they kept wearing it. they now made it a law on it's own so they can give them a bigger bill then covering your face whit something els.

also do i c that you guys take it all out of context of what the government mend whit this. and i support this law 100%

if you come here then you have to ajust to us.
if you don't like it, don't come here.
there are enoufg other options then our country.
partydevil
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partydevil
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Jester

i feel you guys don't understand the reasoning behind it. and i'm not the right guy to translate that to english.

and i see that most of you have no idea of what the dutch culture is ( AgathaB) some points made in these 1st few posts realy are misleading of what my country stands for.

and tbh i don't care what you think.
if think it is bad then the answer is simple. don't come here and bother whit it.

nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

we never say entirely. sure you can keep your own culture. but you should adept to what is normal in the netherlands and get mixed in the dutch culture.
if you don't then you are unable to make connections.


How would that be a problem? Of course they should do the basics, learn about Dutch culture, learn the language, learn the ways of life, but to go to the extent of adapting fully and becoming Dutch? I won't want to give up my identity, and the burqa is a large part of the culture.

usualy it's the man of those woman that forces them to wear it.
it's not so much a practice for being a muslim.


Again, not every woman is forced to wear one. I come from a place where Muslim women are not forced to even wear traditional dress, and the same applies to my region. Only the most fanatical of Muslims force their women to.

if you come here then you have to ajust to us.
if you don't like it, don't come here.
there are enoufg other options then our country.


And the Dutch claim to be accepting of other cultures? Talk about doing a volte face.

The important pan-European efforts to integrate Muslims and secure respect for modern secular values are at its core a battle of and for the minds of Muslims, not their clothing.

Fining women for wearing specific clothing will only create the most unlikely of martyrs out of the very people whom European governments wish to liberate.

But what about the women forced by their families to wear the burqa? Forcing a woman to wear a burqa is a serious violation of a woman's freedom and should never be tolerated. But in most European countries it is already a crime to force someone to wear specific clothing against their will. Enforcement of these laws, however, is notoriously difficult, and has been weakened by ideological multiculturalism.

There are legitimate security concerns related to the burqa, but a general ban against wearing it in public is not a proportionate response.

There are hardly many incidents where gangs of women in burqas commit serious crimes or act in a threatening manner. Nor are women in burqas likely to be terrorists.

It is true that criminals and terrorists can hide their faces behind burqas, but the same can be said of crash helmets and ski masks, the wearing of which no one would seriously try to prohibit. Is the government going to ban racing helmets, motorcycle helmets, welding masks as well?

and tbh i don't care what you think.
if think it is bad then the answer is simple. don't come here and bother whit it.


Forcing people off the land on the basis that they aren't willing to give up part of their culture and adapt is the hallmark of an intolerant regime, and goes against democracy and human rights.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
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Regent

The burqa? It suppresses women and denies their rights of individuality. Sure there are even women who will fight for the 'right' of wearing a burqa but they are indoctrined and subordinated. Many moderate muslim don't want it either.

I'm personally not yet sure if those bans are the right way to do it, depending on the motivation; but as partydevil said, noone is forced to adopt a completely new life. Banning the burqa seems to me simply like a way to enforce international human rights and prevent the spread of extremism. If that's the reason of the ban, I can certainly support it.

Same goes for the minaret ban in Switzerland. Disgraceful.

Many were against the ban because it's pure provocation; however, many moderate muslims also are against minarets since they have an expansionistic role (by that I mean, too aggressive/radical as a signal). I'm not completely sure, but isn't it so that there are no/few minarets in islamic countries at all?
AgathaB
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AgathaB
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Fining women for wearing specific clothing will only create the most unlikely of martyrs out of the very people whom European governments wish to liberate.


This was the exact point I was about to make.

also do i c that you guys take it all out of context of what the government mend whit this. and i support this law 100%


The government has the best intentions with this law, I agree. I can understand wanting each citizen to bare their faces. But not when it infringes on personal freedom. Nicho is right; should we ban motorcycle helmets next? I wear one, does that mean I'm going to ram my bike into a store window tomorrow?

if you come here then you have to ajust to us.
if you don't like it, don't come here.
there are enoufg other options then our country.


See, here, you just validated my entire point on Western countries thinking they're more accommodating than they actually are. Just because we can't understand a culture doesn't mean we have the right to suppress it. Which is what's happening when you say 'adjust or leave'. Adjusting works both ways, as I said.

and i see that most of you have no idea of what the dutch culture is ( AgathaB) some points made in these 1st few posts realy are misleading of what my country stands for.


I never even said anything about the Dutch specifically. And I'd really appreciate it if you didn't assume anything about what I do or don't know, thank you.
AgathaB
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AgathaB
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Nomad

The burqa? It suppresses women and denies their rights of individuality. Sure there are even women who will fight for the 'right' of wearing a burqa but they are indoctrined and subordinated. Many moderate muslim don't want it either.


Maybe we're indoctrinated into thinking that about them. This kind of thinking rubs me the wrong way because it basically says that we believe they're wrong because they were taught that from early on. The same argument could be made about the Western society.

I happen to know a Muslim woman who is neither subordinated nor indoctrinated. She wears a burqa because she wants to, because to her it's an expression of her culture and faith and she wishes to wear it. That's all there is to it. Nuns wear habits. Yet somehow, that's perfectly alright, isn't it?
partydevil
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partydevil
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Jester

Of course they should do the basics, learn about Dutch culture, learn the language, learn the ways of life,


wich they don't.

not every woman is forced to wear one.


i said usualy. not every.
ofcours there are exceptions but the exceptions are whit very few. especialy in the netherlands where we have only around the 10 people wearing a burqa.

the burqa is a large part of the culture.


in some countrys because it's the law there. in overal burqa's are usualy forced upon the woman.

And the Dutch claim to be accepting of other cultures?


we except them.
and we also except them ni our own country.
we do however not except it when those people are not willing to learn the dutch culture. what people do in there own country doesn't matter us much. thats their own culture.

Fining women for wearing specific clothing will only create the most unlikely of martyrs out of the very people whom European governments wish to liberate.


maybe sometime they will show their face then. untill then we can't take them serious.

There are hardly many incidents where gangs of women in burqas commit serious crimes or act in a threatening manner. Nor are women in burqas likely to be terrorists.


thats not the point. the point is that it simply is not allowed to cover your face. that is a law. a law standing longer then any burqa has been in the netherlands.
based on this law they should have stoped wearing a burqa the moment they entered the netherlands.

crash helmets


black glass is not allowed. you need white glass so we can see your face. (atleast eye's)

ski masks

they do not cover your face only your eye's
we are still able to recognise you whit them on.

as for ski masks that compleetly cover your face.
they are outlawed.
and beside is the netherlands compleetly flat so skiing is not a option here anyway)

welding masks


you are not allowed to walk around all day long whit a closed welding mask on your head.
you can only use it for your work.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

Many were against the ban because it's pure provocation; however, many moderate muslims also are against minarets since they have an expansionistic role (by that I mean, too aggressive/radical as a signal). I'm not completely sure, but isn't it so that there are no/few minarets in islamic countries at all?



The burqa? It suppresses women and denies their rights of individuality. Sure there are even women who will fight for the 'right' of wearing a burqa but they are indoctrined and subordinated. Many moderate muslim don't want it either.


CNN Women write in. On why she wears the Burqa.

Another one here.

As said, there are already laws prohibiting people from forcing others to wear clothing they don't want to. But why stop a woman if she genuinely wants to? You're going against human rights if you do that too.

Many were against the ban because it's pure provocation; however, many moderate muslims also are against minarets since they have an expansionistic role (by that I mean, too aggressive/radical as a signal). I'm not completely sure, but isn't it so that there are no/few minarets in islamic countries at all?


No....there are many minarets in Islamic countries, preserved for historical value and for modern buildings.

I didn't bother finding really modern examples, but there's one in the Grand Mosque in Kuwait, built in 1979.

The cross can also be seen as a symbol for war, especially when one considers the Crusades. So why not ban that too?
nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

ofcours there are exceptions but the exceptions are whit very few. especialy in the netherlands where we have only around the 10 people wearing a burqa.


Only 10? Link please?

And yes, bring up the point that the burqa is forced on women again and again. No one in their right minds would support that, what I'm speaking for, is women who WANT to wear the burqa.

we except them.
and we also except them ni our own country.
we do however not except it when those people are not willing to learn the dutch culture. what people do in there own country doesn't matter us much. thats their own culture.


I don't find it a problem that people don't fully learn about a country's culture. So long as they contribute and don't harm the country, fine. By forcing your culture on them, you're just going to alienate them and create anger.

wich they don't.


Evidence that most don't.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
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Regent

Nuns wear habits. Yet somehow, that's perfectly alright, isn't it?

No. If it was in my hands to decide, nuns would wear normal clothes and church towers would be taken down.

What rubs me in the wrong way is overly demonstrative signs of religious devotion. If I could decide, school rooms were free of any crosses, nuns would wear their garb only in the coven, and church towers would be taken down. I am ok with people being devoted to their religion, even the sight of cross pendants doesn't strike me too much; but as soon as people feel the need to show everyone they're the most devoted religious guy/gal ever, I see a serious problem, and a psychological issue.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
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Regent

The cross can also be seen as a symbol for war, especially when one considers the Crusades. So why not ban that too?

You can't compare the cross with minarets. Of course I don't like the cross either, but first thing I'd ban are church towers, not the moon of islam.
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