Dutch governent bans burqa - Armor Games Community

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Deth666

653 posts

Nomad

Posted January 28, '12 8:05pm UTC

Didn't the French try to ban burqas as well. It seems like Europe has a big problem with ignorance of other cultures in their governments.

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thepunisher93

1,826 posts

Nomad

Posted January 28, '12 9:16pm UTC

if you come here then you have to ajust to us.
if you don't like it, don't come here.
there are enoufg other options then our country.

what bout those who are third or second gen?

Didn't the French try to ban burqas as well. It seems like Europe has a big problem with ignorance of other cultures in their governments.

ans than they wonder why muslims see them as enemies?

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thepunisher93

1,826 posts

Nomad

Posted January 28, '12 9:20pm UTC

we except them.
and we also except them ni our own country.
we do however not except it when those people are not willing to learn the dutch culture. what people do in there own country doesn't matter us much. thats their own culture.

usually every masjid have minaret
from here people were called to prayers in old times, now they have loud speakers fitted.

that is a law. a law standing longer then any burqa has been in the netherlands

laws can be amended,
once witches were burnt at stake, now they are not

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thepunisher93

1,826 posts

Nomad

Posted January 28, '12 9:23pm UTC

in some countrys because it's the law there. in overal burqa's are usualy forced upon the woman.

can u list those countries?
as far as i know only some gulf states force it and they have a fraction of muslim population in them.

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HahiHa

8,256 posts

Regent

Posted January 28, '12 9:25pm UTC

Didn't the French try to ban burqas as well. It seems like Europe has a big problem with ignorance of other cultures in their governments.

Lol, as if America didn't have islamophobia and intolerance issues...

Honestly, I know it's wrong to hassle people with such drastic and insensitive bans. But I do have a problem with religious signs that even the moderate people of said religion don't necessarily support. And we all know that politics love to answer provocations with provocations.

ans than they wonder why muslims see them as enemies?

You're no better; here we have islamophobic people, you have westernophobic people. The ones ban minarets and burqas, the other burn churches. Both see the other one as enemy, but none seem to listen to the moderate people.

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thepunisher93

1,826 posts

Nomad

Posted January 28, '12 9:37pm UTC

You're no better; here we have islamophobic people, you have westernophobic people. The ones ban minarets and burqas, the other burn churches. Both see the other one as enemy, but none seem to listen to the moderate people.

other than talibans, i never heared of government backed praying place arson

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partydevil

5,129 posts

Jester

Posted January 29, '12 12:39am UTC

Only 10? Link please?

my last source was from the 90's.
now there are about 150. (wich is still only 1 in 110.000 people)
http://www.trouw.nl/tr/nl/6849/Sylvain-Ephimenco/article/detail/2941368/2011/10/02/150-boerka-s.dhtml

And yes, bring up the point that the burqa is forced on women again and again. No one in their right minds would support that, what I'm speaking for, is women who WANT to wear the burqa.

so you say i should be allowed to walk in a KKK outfit if i realy WANT to?
no matter the background of it.

atleast we try to go against all those that are forced. only to bad we are so small.

I don't find it a problem that people don't fully learn about a country's culture. So long as they contribute and don't harm the country,

1 they don't contribute to society. because they are unable to get connected whit society.
and they do harm the country by not contributing and taking advantage of our care system. costing us only money.

By forcing your culture on them

we don't force our culture. we only prohibit burqas. that in the 1st place have never been allowed anyway because of a other law.

is that culture you talk about compleetly based on that burqa? is there not a single other aspect to this culture then burqas?
i find that very hard to believe.

you're just going to alienate them and create anger.

if they don't want to show their face then they do not belong in this country.

Evidence that most don't.

you do understand that we talk about a very very small group of people here right?
and you do know you all a making a big problem out of this while in my country itself it isn't realy a big deal. also not for the almost 1 mill muslims that live here.

and as you might know yourself. finding good sources of a very small amount of people is hard. and if i also have to have them in english.... no way.

if that is the only reason you don't believe it. then so be it. atleast i know what the real deal is. and not only 1 news article.

what bout those who are third or second gen?

those are not the people causing problems.
2nd and 3rd gen. have learned the dutch culture from young age
it's the 1st gen and new people that cause the problems.

laws can be amended,

in my country. you need to be recognisable in case the police is looking for you. you need a ID card whit you all the time whit your face on it. so that the police knows who they talk whit at all times. (having no ID whit you is a 90 euro fine)
that is the reason why people are not allowed to cover their face from public.

i find that a beter reason to keep the law. then some woman that want to wear a burqa, and do not want to speak dutch. but on the other side do want the care from our care system.

as far as i know only some gulf states force it

those i mend

[quote]Only 10? Link please?[/quote]\r\n\r\nmy last source was from the 90's.\r\nnow there are about 150. (wich is still only 1 in 110.000 people)\r\nhttp://www.trouw.nl/tr/nl/6849/Sylvain-Ephimenco/article/detail/2941368/2011/10/02/150-boerka-s.dhtml\r\n\r\n[quote]And yes, bring up the point that the burqa is forced on women again and again. No one in their right minds would support that, what I'm speaking for, is women who WANT to wear the burqa.[/quote]\r\n\r\nso you say i should be allowed to walk in a KKK outfit if i realy WANT to?\r\nno matter the background of it.\r\n\r\natleast we try to go against all those that are forced. only to bad we are so small.\r\n\r\n[quote]I don't find it a problem that people don't fully learn about a country's culture. So long as they contribute and don't harm the country,[/quote]\r\n\r\n1 they don't contribute to society. because they are unable to get connected whit society.\r\nand they do harm the country by not contributing and taking advantage of our care system. costing us only money.\r\n\r\n[quote] By forcing your culture on them[/quote]\r\nwe don't force our culture. we only prohibit burqas. that in the 1st place have never been allowed anyway because of a other law.\r\n\r\nis that culture you talk about compleetly based on that burqa? is there not a single other aspect to this culture then burqas?\r\ni find that very hard to believe.\r\n\r\n[quote]you're just going to alienate them and create anger. [/quote]\r\nif they don't want to show their face then they do not belong in this country.\r\n\r\n[quote]Evidence that most don't.[/quote]\r\nyou do understand that we talk about a very very small group of people here right?\r\nand you do know you all a making a big problem out of this while in my country itself it isn't realy a big deal. also not for the almost 1 mill muslims that live here.\r\n\r\nand as you might know yourself. finding good sources of a very small amount of people is hard. and if i also have to have them in english....   no way.\r\n\r\nif that is the only reason you don't believe it. then so be it. atleast i know what the real deal is. and not only 1 news article.\r\n\r\n[quote]what bout those who are third or second gen?[/quote]\r\n\r\nthose are not the people causing problems.\r\n2nd and 3rd gen. have learned the dutch culture from young age\r\nit's the 1st gen and new people that cause the problems.\r\n\r\n[quote]laws can be amended,[/quote]\r\nin my country. you need to be recognisable in case the police is looking for you. you need a ID card whit you all the time whit your face on it. so that the police knows who they talk whit at all times. (having no ID whit you is a 90 euro fine)\r\nthat is the reason why people are not allowed to cover their face from public.\r\n\r\ni find that a beter reason to keep the law. then some woman that want to wear a burqa, and do not want to speak dutch. but on the other side do want the care from our care system.\r\n\r\n[quote]as far as i know only some gulf states force it[/quote]\r\nthose i mend

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partydevil

5,129 posts

Jester

Posted January 29, '12 1:29am UTC

as for it being against human rights..

this is article 9 of the the EU's Charter of Human Rights.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (United Nations), article 18, and the EU's Charter of Human Rights (article 9) state that everyone has freedom of religion and belief. This means you can't punish people for apostasy or heresy or any other element of thought crime. CHR article 9 gives the exception that rights can be curbed for the protection of the fundamental rights of others. On human rights and religion, European Law is most clear when it comes to the employer/employee relationship (which also covers public services):

[quote] âThe Employment Equality Directive introduced in 2000 requires all Member States to protect against discrimination on grounds of religion and belief in employment, occupation and vocational training. [...] The complexity of [it] comes from the fact that while Europe is committed to upholding religious freedom, it is equally committed to equality and other fundamental freedoms. At times these rights are complementary, [but] in other respects, the rights are in tension, with religious groups failing to recognise equality rights or the right of those outside the religious group.â

European Commission (2006)

[/quote]

there are exceptions possible. freedom of religion is not the most importend right.

as for it being against human rights..\r\n\r\nthis is article 9 of the the EU's Charter of Human Rights.\r\n[quote]\r\nThe Universal Declaration of Human Rights (United Nations), article 18, and the EU's Charter of Human Rights (article 9) state that everyone has freedom of religion and belief. This means you can't punish people for apostasy or heresy or any other element of thought crime. CHR article 9 gives the exception that rights can be curbed for the protection of the fundamental rights of others. On human rights and religion, European Law is most clear when it comes to the employer/employee relationship (which also covers public services):\r\n\r\n[quote]    â��The Employment Equality Directive introduced in 2000 requires all Member States to protect against discrimination on grounds of religion and belief in employment, occupation and vocational training. [...] The complexity of [it] comes from the fact that while Europe is committed to upholding religious freedom, it is equally committed to equality and other fundamental freedoms. At times these rights are complementary, [but] in other respects, the rights are in tension, with religious groups failing to recognise equality rights or the right of those outside the religious group.â��\r\n\r\n    European Commission (2006)[/quote][/quote]\r\n\r\nthere are exceptions possible. freedom of religion is not the most importend right.

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nichodemus

14,991 posts

Grand Duke

Posted January 29, '12 3:45am UTC

so you say i should be allowed to walk in a KKK outfit if i realy WANT to?
no matter the background of it.

atleast we try to go against all those that are forced. only to bad we are so small.

The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) has provided legal support to various factions of the KKK in defense of their First Amendment rights to hold public rallies, parades, and marches, as well as their right to field political candidates.

Either way, the burqa has a much deeper cultural meaning than a trend that appeared only in the last century.

we don't force our culture. we only prohibit burqas. that in the 1st place have never been allowed anyway because of a other law.

is that culture you talk about compleetly based on that burqa? is there not a single other aspect to this culture then burqas?
i find that very hard to believe.

It isn't but it's an integral part. It's the same as saying that one can profess the Christian faith, except one must take out parts of it like the Eucharist.

10 of your 150 MPs from the 2003 elections were Muslims.There are 850,000 Muslims in the Netherlands, and though they have a higher proportion than the natives for unemployment, I don't appreciate it when you say that they don't contribute at all.

Since there are so few people wanting to wear the burqa, I don't see why the government can give out licenses since there are so few people.

[quote]so you say i should be allowed to walk in a KKK outfit if i realy WANT to?\r\nno matter the background of it.\r\n\r\natleast we try to go against all those that are forced. only to bad we are so small.[/quote]\r\n\r\nThe American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) has provided legal support to various factions of the KKK in defense of their First Amendment rights to hold public rallies, parades, and marches, as well as their right to field political candidates.\r\n\r\nEither way, the burqa has a much deeper cultural meaning than a trend that appeared only in the last century.  \r\n\r\n[quote]we don't force our culture. we only prohibit burqas. that in the 1st place have never been allowed anyway because of a other law.\r\n\r\nis that culture you talk about compleetly based on that burqa? is there not a single other aspect to this culture then burqas?\r\ni find that very hard to believe.[/quote]\r\n\r\nIt isn't but it's an integral part. It's the same as saying that one can profess the Christian faith, except one must take out parts of it like the Eucharist. \r\n\r\n10 of your 150 MPs from the 2003 elections were Muslims.There are 850,000 Muslims in the Netherlands, and though they have a higher proportion than the natives for unemployment, I don't appreciate it when you say that they don't contribute at all.\r\n\r\nSince there are so few people wanting to wear the burqa, I don't see why the government can give out licenses since there are so few people.

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partydevil

5,129 posts

Jester

Posted January 29, '12 4:43am UTC

The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) has provided legal support to various factions of the KKK in defense of their First Amendment rights to hold public rallies, parades, and marches, as well as their right to field political candidates.

what can i say?
fail..
i'm happy i'm not part of that country.

then what about naturists? there are 700.000 naturists in the nethelands. of wich some would want to walk naked in public as if it is normal.
should we allow them because it is a naturist culture to be naked?

i don't see why burqa are so special.
burqas are not needed for the religion, there are enoufg people of that same religion who find burqas just as ridiculas as people that don't believe it.
when you leave your country you should be prepared to leave some of your culute because you are no longer part of that culture. if you want to stay in that culture please also stay in that country and don't come here causing us problems.

It isn't but it's an integral part.

it isn't.

there are millions of muslims that do not wear burqas and that are just as much muslim as they are.

burqas are not needed for the religion.

I don't appreciate it when you say that they don't contribute at all.

thats what i mean whit you can't find the evidence about those small groups.
do you think i call 850.000 people a small group?

i speak about the 5000 to 10.000 or so that are the problem. of wich even much less people actualy wear a burqa.

can you please start to see that it isn't a big deal? i'm getting prety tierd of this.

Since there are so few people wanting to wear the burqa, I don't see why the government can give out licenses since there are so few people.

maybe this explains then: (quote from the link i posted earlyer)

The ban would be purely symbolic, too expensive and useless because a small group of only 150 women. One or two of those 150 I come across now and then. I can assure everyone that the commotion, discomfort, anxiety (especially in children) and aggressiveness that sometimes the appearance of only a burqa wearer in public causes, inversely proportional to the number. It is then up to the legislature for the sake of social cohesion and stability, this limit to be set. And that legislature can correct the limited number of burqa wearers supply the Netherlands to support its action: to ensure social peace, he need only 150 women in their religious eccentricity limit.

(google translate translation)

[quote]The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) has provided legal support to various factions of the KKK in defense of their First Amendment rights to hold public rallies, parades, and marches, as well as their right to field political candidates.[/quote]\r\n\r\nwhat can i say?\r\nfail..\r\ni'm happy i'm not part of that country.\r\n\r\nthen what about naturists? there are 700.000 naturists in the nethelands. of wich some would want to walk naked in public as if it is normal.\r\nshould we allow them because it is a naturist culture to be naked?\r\n\r\ni don't see why burqa are so special.\r\nburqas are not needed for the religion, there are enoufg people of that same religion who find burqas just as ridiculas as people that don't believe it.\r\nwhen you leave your country you should be prepared to leave some of your culute because you are no longer part of that culture. if you want to stay in that culture please also stay in that country and don't come here causing us problems.\r\n\r\n[quote]It isn't but it's an integral part.[/quote]\r\n\r\nit isn't.\r\n\r\nthere are millions of muslims that do not wear burqas and that are just as much muslim as they are.\r\n\r\nburqas are not needed for the religion.\r\n\r\n[quote]I don't appreciate it when you say that they don't contribute at all.[/quote]\r\n\r\nthats what i mean whit you can't find the evidence about those small groups.\r\ndo you think i call 850.000 people a small group?\r\n\r\ni speak about the 5000 to 10.000 or so that are the problem. of wich even much less people actualy wear a burqa.\r\n\r\ncan you please start to see that it isn't a big deal? i'm getting prety tierd of this.\r\n\r\n[quote]Since there are so few people wanting to wear the burqa, I don't see why the government can give out licenses since there are so few people.[/quote]\r\n\r\nmaybe this explains then: (quote from the link i posted earlyer)\r\n\r\n[quote]The ban would be purely symbolic, too expensive and useless because a small group of only 150 women. One or two of those 150 I come across now and then. I can assure everyone that the commotion, discomfort, anxiety (especially in children) and aggressiveness that sometimes the appearance of only a burqa wearer in public causes, inversely proportional to the number. It is then up to the legislature for the sake of social cohesion and stability, this limit to be set. And that legislature can correct the limited number of burqa wearers supply the Netherlands to support its action: to ensure social peace, he need only 150 women in their religious eccentricity limit.\r\n[/quote]\r\n (google translate translation)

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nichodemus

14,991 posts

Grand Duke

Posted January 29, '12 4:45am UTC

Case close then, you've made your point. Only Punisher will fight against the onslaught of such arguments.

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zakyman

1,627 posts

Peasant

Posted January 29, '12 12:48pm UTC

so you say i should be allowed to walk in a KKK outfit if i realy WANT to?
no matter the background of it.

Well, yes. That's your right to do so if you choose.

what can i say?
fail..
i'm happy i'm not part of that country.

So you would rather live in a country where your rights are trampled on? If no one was protecting the KKK's rights, than who would be looking out for all of the others?

should we allow them because it is a naturist culture to be naked?

No, because that's public indecency. Covering your face with a veil is the exact opposite...

burqas are not needed for the religion.

I'm sorry. I didn't know that you were an imam. Or just a scholar of the Islamic religion. That ignorant comment that you just posted would be like saying wearing a kippah is not important in Judaism, or that crossing oneself could be left out in Christianity. How would you like it if an Islamic country suddenly started discriminating against a religious minority, simply because they could? I am not advocation for the introduction of Sharia law, however I am against the pretense of discrimination based on faith.

[quote]so you say i should be allowed to walk in a KKK outfit if i realy WANT to?\r\nno matter the background of it.[/quote]\r\n\r\nWell, yes. That's your right to do so if you choose.\r\n\r\n[quote]what can i say?\r\nfail..\r\ni'm happy i'm not part of that country.[/quote]\r\n\r\nSo you would rather live in a country where your rights are trampled on? If no one was protecting the KKK's rights, than who would be looking out for all of the others?\r\n\r\n[quote]should we allow them because it is a naturist culture to be naked?[/quote]\r\n\r\nNo, because that's public indecency. Covering your face with a veil is the exact opposite...\r\n\r\n[quote]burqas are not needed for the religion.[/quote]\r\n\r\nI'm sorry. I didn't know that you were an imam. Or just a scholar of the Islamic religion. That ignorant comment that you just posted would be like saying wearing a kippah is not important in Judaism, or that crossing oneself could be left out in Christianity. How would you like it if an Islamic country suddenly started [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copts]discriminating against a religious minority,[/url] simply because they could? I am not advocation for the introduction of Sharia law, however I am against the pretense of discrimination based on faith.

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partydevil

5,129 posts

Jester

Posted January 29, '12 12:54pm UTC

Case close then, you've made your point. Only Punisher will fight against the onslaught of such arguments.

i hope you see now that we are not as close minded as you thought.
we don't prohibit it for nothing. all this time we havn't done anything about it even tho it was against the law. we had thrown it like most people do on the freedom of religion stack.
but now we came to a point where we felt we had to do something about it. because more and more of those people became isolated because they are unable to make a connection whit society.

in the end it's only good for our society and the isolated individuals. and thats why we do it.
not out of hate or whatever towards the muslim community.
(most muslims in the netherlands even support it)

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nichodemus

14,991 posts

Grand Duke

Posted January 29, '12 12:58pm UTC

I'm sorry. I didn't know that you were an imam. Or just a scholar of the Islamic religion. That ignorant comment that you just posted would be like saying wearing a kippah is not important in Judaism, or that crossing oneself could be left out in Christianity. How would you like it if an Islamic country suddenly started discriminating against a religious minority, simply because they could? I am not advocation for the introduction of Sharia law, however I am against the pretense of discrimination based on faith.

I'm sorry. I'm not aware that you too are an Imam.

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zakyman

1,627 posts

Peasant

Posted January 29, '12 12:58pm UTC

(most muslims in the netherlands even support it)

Do you have a link for this fact?

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